Aspies For Freedom

I used to get incredibly annoyed when people would say to me "i'm over here" because I was looking at the wall behind them rather than their eyes. There are very few people I can comfortably make eye contact with, and even those I am comfortable making eye contact with I can't think about anything in detail while doing so.

I've been thinking about the same kinds of things and I was wondering...

Do you think that "intervention" programs for young autistic children that require them to use eye contact are actually hindering and/or delaying thier language development and comprehension (since it is harder for some to concentrate while making eye contact) or does the repeated practice at making eye contact eventually make the process easier due to learning to be more comfortable with it?

Things I just read the other day that may or may not help you explain eyecontact to others.

http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=110
http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=135

The EYEBALLS post gave me anxiety just reading it.
So it is no wonder this finding that I have seen in a few places lately:
"Eye contact triggers threat signals in autistic children's brains, even if it is a familiar face":
[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicaln...wsid=20799]

Which makes me wonder:  is it the eyecontact that is the "threat"?  Or the de-concentrating that we somehow remember (consciously or unconsciously) that they eyecontact will do to us?

I suppose it must depend on the person, because not everyone has quite the same reactions to eyecontact, and the severity of the reactions also differs.

Alternatively you could look at the nose or the eyebrows or something close to the eyes.  This, I think, avoids some of the "math" and planning in SoccerFreak's technique.  I could never do something like that which requires so much thinking while actually thinking other things having to do with the conversation.  

On the other hand nobody bothers me about my eyecontact, even though I know that my eyecontact behaviour is not "standard".  I am not sure why this is.

Best way to approach the eye contact "problem" which should be fine 9 times out of 10:

Just be yourself, if people complain then politely explain. If they persist complaining they aren't worth your time.

Simple really

I look at people's mouths or the wall behind them.  They do not really seem to notice me looking at their mouths.  I found wearing dark or mirrored glasses helpful since they can not tell where you are looking.

Apparently people wearing sunglasses (and perhaps normal glasses too) are less trusted.

My pain in the @## ASD (Head Honcho) at work makes me angry when he constantly asks two of the kids in class (one dx AS, the other strongly suspected of it) to make eye contact when he's talking to them.  He gets quite strident about it, to the point of tilting their chins manually to look him in the eye, and then complains when they either 1) don't get what he is saying, or 2) burst into tears.  I find this really over the top.  

I find I can communicate quite easily with both boys, I just don't expect them to make eye contact with me while I'm talking.  They usually come to me now in preference to him because they're actually scared of him.  

Another thing is that the ASD for some odd reason only wants the kids to eat their lunch in a certain order: sandwiches first, other food last.  One of my kids mentioned above prefers to eat his yoghurt first, then his cheese stick, then his sandwich, and if left alone with this routine, is fine.  Usually I'm the one who supervises my class during lunch so there's no problem, but last week we combined both classes for lunch "as a little treat".  

Of course, this caused trouble from the start with D.  First off, his routine was disturbed, and we all know how distressing that is for anybody with AS.  Secondly, the ASD was in charge of both rooms, and when D.  ignored him about the sandwiches first rule, he took away the rest of his lunch and left D. with the instructions that he ate his sandwich first and THEN he'd get the rest.

I tried several times to reason with the ASD about how D. eats his lunch, to no avail.  In fact, he then gave me a hard time for "pandering" to D.  Now, I see no reason the child can't eat his lunch in any way he pleases, so long as it gets eaten.  The upshot was that D. eventually had a huge tantrum (I can't blame him for that, he'd been very patient up to then, but he is just a kid) and had no lunch.  

My ASD told his mum when she came to pick him up, putting D. in the worst possible light, and to my delight D's mum tore verbal strips off the ASD, asking why he didn't just let the child eat as he pleased, so long as he ate everything, and then went and complained to the Director about the ASD's autocratic manner!  

Peace has now been restored, thankfully, and I'm allowed to let D. eat in whatever order he wants!

Sorry, went off thread a bit there, but as most of you who've read my previous posts know, the ASD at my work REALLY annoys me...

Alison

I think my eye contact is pretty good. It never used to be this way. When I was a kid, I'd hardly ever look at someone when they were talking to me. I used to have speech therapy before my AS diagnosis and the therapists used to lift my head gently while talking to me so I was looking directly at them. They did this by placing their palm on one of my cheeks and lifted my head up. This worked a bit too well since I did it to people at home but the way I did it was more like slapping someone in the face :lol:

[tangent]
I wonder if making an art project of photographing, drawing or painting the eyes of people we know would be a useful practice for getting more used to eyecontact?  Or would it not make any difference?  Maybe the way you consider an eye when it's an art object can't be extrapolated to the way it feels to look at eyes that have a person behind them who expects something of us in terms of real-time communication.
[/tangent]

"I wonder if making an art project of photographing, drawing or painting the eyes of people we know would be a useful practice for getting more used to eyecontact? Or would it not make any difference? Maybe the way you consider an eye when it's an art object can't be extrapolated to the way it feels to look at eyes that have a person behind them who expects something of us in terms of real-time communication."

Actually I did a photography project on portraits.  I used to love to draw people's faces too.  I have struggled to make eye contact and I can do it.  

The problem is that I cannot decipher the information in the eye and facial expressions - so really - I am not getting anything out of it and I lose interest in doing it.  I only use eye contact for the benefit of the NT I am talking to.  Even then I am falsely accused of lying since I might touch my face or display some other body language that is offensive or some facial expression or lack of that is offensive.  So really why should I bother to give these people the courtesy of eye contact?

[tangent]

http://tindaisies.blogspot.com/2006/07/tiki-party.html

[/tangent]

Nix, you were asking for a system. I don't know how useful this would be...but here goes.

I usually look at a person in glances, if I look too long I start to lose the plot of what they're saying...so it's look for a few seconds, look away while I process, glance back to nod if it's called for. I tend to glance at them when they come a pause when talking. Look away before answering to give me a chance to think, glance back as I start to talk, just long enough to connect a gaze.

I've had my husband signal to me if he thinks I'm offending someone with too little eye contact, which is helpful, and beats the hell out of having him direct my chin towards someone. That really makes me angry.

I saw the essay ballastexistenz wrote about eyecontact, and I thought it was delightful. Maybe wrong of me to feel that way, but it was so fantastic to hear those feelings as a stream of conciousness, it was like someone had been inside my head. I don't often feel that way. It was like...ahhhh....I'm so happy...not alone! :grin:

Oh. About looking at someone's mouth...I had a step parent who was really freaked out about the appearance of her teeth (she'd been called 'squirrel' as a taunt as a child, her chin was undershot, too, poor thing). If I looked at her mouth when she talked she would become  furious, she assumed I was being rude. I learned to look at her eyebrows, it was safer. Just something to keep in mind if you meet someone with bad teeth. Sounds stupid, but it's actually a good tip, I think.

I don't think I have nearly the same amount of problem with eye contact that I used to. When I was young I could hardly maintain eye contact at all, it was more of a pain issue at that point than the discomfort/processing issue it is now (I'm in my early 40's) But if I'm in an uncomfortable situation, say with a lot of strangers talking in a meeting, the old 'painful' issues can crop up again. ILP meetings at my son's school were torture, for instance. Deep breathing to help calm down helps a little.

The second part is really a good tip, because while we need to do certain things to be OK ourselves, we can't forget take into account another person's insecurity, especially if it's something we could guess easily, like that.

The first part, I thought it was funny that the other day I told AB's eyeballs story to an NT person at work becos one of our colleagues is a real Close Talker and I hadn't realised it until he got me in the hall and tried to tell me a story while standing real close and staring right into me.  And she walked by while he was talking and afterwards I told her the eyeballs eyeballs story and she cracked up.  Some people produce that effect even on NTs.

Not quite so silly - it's not moving the head but moving the eyes while accessing different parts of the brain. I'm unsure though as to whether this has been extensively scientifically tested but it does work sometimes.