Aspies For Freedom

Look, this is really not difficult. I'll say it again, s...l...o...w...l...y, and maybe you'll get it.

I'm not looking at you because I'm trying to concentrate on what you're saying.

Especially if you're giving me visual instructions (eg first left by the lights), I can either take in what you're saying fully OR I can look at you. If I stare into your eyes then I won't take in a word you're saying.

It's really not difficult, is it?

[end rant]

it's kinda hard to explain how i maintain eye contct, it just comes naturally for me. But when someone is talking to you you look in their eyes or at their gestures, and when there's a pause in their speech (eg when they stop talking and wait for your response) then look away, and when you're ready to speak look up, and then it's up to them to look in your eyes. Thats what i do and it seems to work out ok.

NT's want to be the center of attention when they're talking to you. So if you're not looking at their face they think you are annoyed/ trying to ignore and ect. So even if you're un-confterable with doing what i said upbove, then in their eyes for 5 seconds then look away for 3.

If it's hard for you to concentrate while someone is talking to you and it helps if you look away. And they say " hey im over here." then you breifly look at them. then look back down (usually having your hand on your chin like you're thinking will sell this off) and say, " sorry, im just trying to sort out your directions, continue" or something to that matter.

Or if they dont shut up and give you a turn and they keep talking. Some have a tendency to look away for short period (eg 1-3 seconds) So when they look away; you look away. Because if they look away and then look up again and they find you're still staring at them, it will make an NT uncofterable. So when they look away, look away too and every 2 second glance(with your eyes, do not move your head when doing this) and see if they're looking up agian, and if they are then look up too. And when I say look down I mean slightly with your head or alot with your eyes. Or a combo of both, whatever you feel cofterable doing.( yay something you can choose)

And if the NT is still un-cofterable with you, then chances are they are stupid and it's not your fault.

Try this technique on a family member or a close friend before a aquintice or stranger.

Naybe they think it'll offemd you or something. Or maybe it is't as nonstandered as you think.

The problem is that as the eye contact isn't intuitive but has to be consciously controlled, then that's going to interfere with understanding. In the spirit of eyeballs I post a senario:

OK, so I turn left... arh, I'm staring at the floor, got to look at the eyes... and then I... eyeballs... I'm sorry, I didn't get that... bugger, I'm back to looking at the floor again... yes, I see... eyeballs OK, left... is it time to look away?... eyeballs... do they think I'm staring at them?... eyeballs... Oh dear, could you repeat that again for me, please?

Amount of eye contact is entirely culturally dependent (cf English comments about "shifty foreigners" who won't look them in the eye) so there really is No Excuse for NT's to get their knickers in a twist, and no reason to subject aspie kids to "intervention" programmes like that.

Well that's me done for - I wear dark blue colourimetry lenses.

The main issue with eye contact is that NT's associate telling the truth with being able to look straight in the eye, and lying with looking away.  When you are dealing with general social conversation someone might not care that much if you are looking them in the eye.  But, if you are being called on the carpet about something, it will be expected, or you may not be trusted.  That is the sad truth.  In the later situation I think an explanation of how difficult it is for you in all situations might be a good idea.  At times.

OK, now I get to feel guilty about asking my son to look me in the eyes to show that he has registered what we've talked about ...

Report him for physical abuse. Seriously. I've had this done to me and it is absolutely horrible. Do you have some sort of code about "inappropriate/unwanted touching"? If you don't want to report him directly, let the parents know and watch that mother go for him again (she sounds fab).

This is certainly true in the UK and the US, but there are heaps of places and NT cultures where this isn't the case. This is one reason why I get annoyed that NT's in those cultures seem so ignorant about other ways of doing eye contact, and insist that everyone else conform to their way.

The problem with eye contact in a 'carpeting' situation is that the situation is already threatening and stressful, and then to add the threatening and stressful eye contact situation can be just too much. Forcing an autie to make eye contact is an aggressive act.

Its not even the entire US. By god you can go south of the mason dixon line and when an adult talks to you (at least when their angry) you look at the floor.

I got told by my TKD instructor that I had "weak eyes" because I don't look at anything in particular when I practice, especially while doing the forms. A bit frustrating, but not his fault at all.

It seems to be a defect of general western culture.  I had a spanish teacher from Spain, and several students new to the class (including one confirmed aspie) got kicked out or quit because of her perseveration on eye-contact, which ended up being a huge detraction from the class itself.  

I also know a guy who talks about how he "knows" when people are lying.  This same guy would extract the most fanciful scenarios from my body language when I was in my last relationship.  This was before I really knew anything about autism other than my various diagnoses and I had little verbal recourse other than telling him he needed to review what he thought he knew.

I don't like eye contact and I can barely understand why people (in the US and other Western cultures) do it. I only look into the eyes of the man I'm with, and then only rarely.

(It's restful to talk to Pueblo and Navajo people in this respect: they consider any eye contact quite rude, and when talking to you will stare past you.)

Eyes themselves are pretty though, and interesting--yesterday in class, I was sitting next to one of my professors, and as she was looking past me, I caught a glimpse of her eyes: they looked like glass of the palest grey-blue, smashed into many glittering facets.

Yeah. Beautiful or not, eyes convey no information to me. When I was in high school, and a novel I'd be reading would say something about a character seeing another character's thoughts or feelings in their eyes, I would just assume that it was a stylistic convention, like how Achilles is always called "of the great war-cry", or Tomoe "a warrior worth a thousand"; she can't actually fight off one thousand opponents at once. It wasn't until I got to college and actually asked one of my classmates (drunken late-night conversation) that I found out that other people can get some sort of information from eyes.

You touch your face too? I do that all the time, and pick at flakes of skin on my face, hands, and scalp.

Forcing anyone to make eye contact is an aggressive act.

It is no accident that the person who is trying to force the eye contact is the one who is trying to assert their dominance in the social transaction. There are reasons why the Amygdala reacts the way it does to forced eye contact.

It is also acknowledged among Anthropologists that eye contact between male Primates is recognised if not as an act of aggression, then certainly a prelude to it. Similarly, people may have noticed the behaviour of certain feral-behaving types in an urban setting (I live in quite a buit-up area in London), which is about a display of deliberately aggressive body language and dominance. That is what it comes down to in the end.

I have clear memories of my father saying "Look me in the eyes when I'm talking to you!". I don't remember it being unpleasant, and I'm sure at one time or another someone used their hands to orient my face to focus on them.  

But that was my family, and not a stranger touching me, and wasn't intentioned as an aggressive act.  Actually, amongst those I care for, they could do so and I actually find it quite helpful, to shift my attention or make me 'wake up' when I'm busy daydreaming and they want my attention.  That said, I don't, on the whole, like people touching my face. It's a really personal thing.

As for eye contact, after I had been taught to do so, I followed the advice assiduously.  It wasn't until adulthood, that I realised one could give 'too much' eye attention and that could be seen as a bit odd.  It still feels uncomfortable to always look at people (and very often, distracting to the message).  Unlike some, I actually find people's gaze packed with information - information I don't understand.  I also feel people's gaze into me way too intrusive, which I don't like.  

Most animals don't like being stared at in their eyes, either, it seems it's humans that seem to have a need for prolonged eye contact for the purposes of social interraction.

Anyway my question is, does anyone have a system?  Whereby you know how long to look, how long to look away, and where to look?

Suppose you are in a culture where you're expected to stand up whenever you greet somebody.  Then suppose someone is born into this culture with no legs.  When he greets somebody, he does not stand up (duh) and people become annoyed and berate him for it.  Doesn't that strike you as just a bit wrong?  

Yes, you are expected to conform into the culture you're born into, but there are people who for whatever reason are truly incapable of conforming.  It is very well for people who don't fall into such groups to define people who can't conform as "bad"--why not?  It isn't as if it affects the majority of people.  It is not as if it effects the people making such judgements.  But that is a very selfish and inconsiderate idea, that even societies most would consider very primitive would rebuke.  Someone who cannot speak is not rude for refusing to say hi.  The person who states that they are rude is demanding far too much.

Would you rather someone staring at your eyes and not taking in anything you say, or feeling uncomftable but the person has understood what you say....?

if i concentrate on looking at someones eyes when they speak, all i hear is noise, its not words at all...
so i lose much more by looking then the other is going to lose by me not looking..

i just look up everytime they pause,..