Don't we have some kind of resposability of kindness towards the NTs, to not freak them out any more than is necessary for our own sanity/etc.? I mean, we don't have to be strange for the sake of being strange. We have the same duty of generosity towards others as they have towards us. each withing their limitations, of course...
I'm not saying we should try to be as normal as possible, either, I'm just saying the most fair, ideally, is that everybody should have the environment they need without depriving others of the environment they (the others) need.
I suppose in that case the guy who is afraid of balloons and the guy who can't funciton well without a few balloons near him, should find a way to either compromise, or avoid each other, ... or only talk by phone.
:twisted:
Edit: PS:
I voted "meaningless" becos my choice wasn't on there (it depends on the situation) and i wanted to see the other votes.
There are people who truly cannot conform to society's irrational demands. Should someone who is merely less inclined to do so leave these people behind? Should our behavior serve to hide our difference? Should we then discard all notions of pride?
Actually you have a good point.
People don't ask Gay's to have straight marriages and force them into heterosexual relationships because homosexual ones arn't "the norm", they actually made laws and rights to protect them. People do not ask Black's to be a little less black or hide or change their skin colour - hell, can you imagine the reaction if we did? :lol:
So, why do they expect Aspies to pretend to be "Normal" just to suit the people who can't accept them for what they are?
There have been occasions when my actions have made people uncomfortable and I was not aware of their discomfort due to my lack of reading body language and facial expression interpretation. Once someone verbally communicated to me that I had made them uncomfortable, I did feel some compassion for them. If it seemed that they had a logical reason for feeling uncomfortable. ( such as I was talking about their dog that I did not know just died etc)
I do not feel compassion for discomfort I can not understand. Some cultures it is socially unacceptable for a person to cross their legs while sitting. ??? I feel that certain people should have more understanding for me when this type of situation occurs. Really, I would think that they should "get over it".
About 80% of the situations that NT's get upset over are really trival matters. At least they seem to me that way. I often have people tell me that they got a bad first impression of me and when they got to know me that they found me to be very nice and compassionate person.
Whenever one of us says "Yeah I know, something's wrong with me I'm sorry, I know it's my responsibility to try harder." we're sending exactly 180 degrees the wrong message. Every time we do that we're discarding logic and rationality. The one thing that aspies do have in common with everyone else. Isn't that like ostracizing ourselves?
I just think that another thing all humans have in common is that there is something wrong with all of us.
So we miss some things, they miss other things.
Some of what we do is an imposition on them, that they should accept to some extent becos we are worthwhile people and have needs. Some of what they do is an imposition on us, that we should accept to some extent becos they are worthwhile people and have needs.
Etc.
[ EDIT: In order to have communication and understanding, everyone has to try harder. ]
That's all I am trying to say. I just don't like to say we are better than NTs because I really don't believe that to be the case. There are jerks of all neurotypes, there are kind people of all neurotypes.
The only thing is that right now probably we have more awareness of NTs than many of them have of us, but that can be and is being changed, every time we explain ourselves and our lives to others.
I'm just saying that if you look at it logically, (as in, defining mental illness as an inability to accept reality, or having emotions which ignore reality), then the NTs are the ones who have a mental disorder which compels them to act violently toward Aspies, and eachother.
Hee! When do NTs ever look at things logically? They are happiest in their illogical, superstitious, traditionalist world. That's what they understand best. Logic of any kind seems to make them vastly uncomfortable.
Alison :grin:
I didn't mean to say we should discard civility! Not at all!
I'm just saying that if you look at it logically, (as in, defining mental illness as an inability to accept reality, or having emotions which ignore reality), then the NTs are the ones who have a mental disorder which compels them to act violently toward Aspies, and eachother.
I definitely agree with that.
That means the opposite of discarding civility. We have to be extra patient and helpful with them, so they can learn the error of their ways. But we must NEVER morally equivocate. We can't pretend that we have some kind of duty to them. They're the ones who are imposing upon us, not the other way around.
I have a great respect for all persons. There are some things I would not expect normals to understand, but when dealing with disability, one must not make unreasonable demands.
Yet they're considered perfectly rational if they say "Stop it with your 'attitude' you obviously are being rude to me! Look at me when I'm talking to you!"
It's taken me a while with my more NT than not brain to get a grip on this thread, but I would like to offer an opinion to cast perspective on the argument.
The reason it is considered perfectly rational to say the above in most cases is because the speaker believes that manners and proper behavior are easilly learned by everyone, and should be learned by everyone. Someone who would say this has no clue how difficult it is for you. They don't mean to downplay your phobia (is that the right word?), they don't know it exists. And they may actually think they are educating you.
I think a perfectly acceptable response would be, "I don't mean to be rude. You and I have a cultural missunderstanding." Allow a dialogue to begin.
I didn't vote in the poll because I believe "it depends on the situation" is the correct response, and that isn't up there.
Even NT's have to act parts and do things they don't like or aren't comfortable with in order to get along well in the world. It is part of life. Perhaps making that judgement call (when to conform v. when to pass) is more difficult for you all; I suspect it is. But throwing everything out makes your life needlessly confrontational, and overly conforming makes it needlessly stressful. Parents like to talk about picking your battles. The concept applies here.
When I look forward to what I can and should do to help my son, I see helping him understand what conformity is required and what isn't as an important part of what I can share with him. He doesn't want to tie his shoes because he can wear slip ons ... so be it. I'm not married to the concept that every child must be able to tie shoes by age 6, and I'll take on any know-it-all who tries to challenge my refusal to make this a confrontational issue with my son. He doesn't want to walk 10 feet to grab a tissue when snot is running out of his nose ... sorry, he'll have to learn that one. Better yet, he can learn to keep tissues in his pockets since it's the 10 feet that seems to bother him most about the concept. I can work with him on making an adaptation that suits him better.
A lot of education is needed in the NT community to learn to understand Aspies and Autistics better. I think it's fantastic that groups like this are out there and trying to get their voices heard. The NT community needs to understand what you think.
Once the differences are better understood, society will lax or change some of its rules. At least for the affected individuals. It takes time.
Just don't expect everything to become all out live and let live. No one is going to give you something they wouldn't give themselves.
No one is going to give you something they wouldn't give themselves.
Good point...
Gerard, I said that becos there are sometimes a lot of ppl saying that we are better, and we are not: not morally better and not more useful, etc. We and NTs are part of humanity with its good points (creativity, work, thinking, caring for/about others, etc.) and its bad points (human nature, tendency to do wrong things, cruelty, arrogance, etc).
Different is not better, while also not worse. We just have a different style(s) of going about things and of seeing/processing things... both ways (plus other ways) are needed in the world.
I just think the attitude that I sometimes hear of "all NTs are useless, they should just die or something" is awfully wrong and dangerous... I mean it's doing the same thing that curebies want to do with us. Neither we nor they have that right to try to wipe out the other kinds of people.
[tangent]
As for the second part, sometimes I think everyone is crazy (NT, AS, etc)... which would take sanity out of the equation, and just leave "are we doing right?" ... see above.
[/tangent]
Gerard:
Individual aspies may be kinder/etc. than individual NTs but also there will be other individual NTs who are kinder/etc. than other individual aspies.
I have observed this by watching the people around me (face2face and online). Some generally try to do right and some don't, regardless of neurotype. Some have dehumanizing attitudes towards the rest of humanity, and some don't... regardless of neurotype.
It's possible that we can't argue productively, because I am a presuppositionalist: I think that before applying logic, everyone believes something, some core assumption or presupposition from which (+observation +whatever other information comes along later) they logically reach other conclusions.
From watching people here and in other aspie groups (as well as from being an aspie human), I seriously don't think that in an aspie world all societal and environmental problems could be eliminated. I think it's a human problem and we are just as human, in the bad ways too.
Plus, is there really a "their way" and an "our way"? I think if you think of philosophies or lifestyles or worldviews, there are many ways out there, most of which are practiced by some NTs and some AS.
And there are some typically AS ways and some typically NT ways, but there is a huge variety of thinking and of behavior among us, and among them also.
I hope I have expressed all of this clearly; contrary to AS stereotype, I am not all that good at debating. :wink:
The majority of people are logical enough for the majority of their situations. Since primates have evolved very strong social interactive traits, it makes biological sense that a member of H. sapiens would make a great deal of logiccal sense for it have a great deal of difficulty, as a trend, if not a universal rule, abandoning a trait into which there was so much "evolutionary capital" invested, would it not?
Consider me suitably chastened, Dogface. Yes of course NTs are logical, nice, reasonable people. Silly me, as an Aspie what do I know of their boundless compassion and wisdom? I must just have been feeling a bit down watching the latest news about the wars and death in the Middle East, perhaps, or on the same news report hearing how a man stubbed out his cigarette butt in a toddler's eye, or somebody else being stabbed/beaten to death/raped/terrorized.
Or it could just have been I was irritable after work where I was told not to make an innovation because "it had never been done that way before, therefore we won't even try it although it makes good economic sense and would benefit everybody." All these things are perfectly logical, right? From a certain biological viewpoint, of course.
Alison
dogface, why are you trying to start fights here. We have issues with NTs ok, we've been treated less than nice by a considerable amount of them. If you want to keep bullying people over it, please don't. You haven't walked a mile in our shoes.
Yes of course NTs are logical, nice, reasonable people. Silly me, as an Aspie what do I know of their boundless compassion and wisdom? I must just have been feeling a bit down watching the latest news about the wars and death in the Middle East, perhaps, or on the same news report hearing how a man stubbed out his cigarette butt in a toddler's eye, or somebody else being stabbed/beaten to death/raped/terrorized.
Heinrich Himmler probably had Asperger's. He moved in a different way from everyone around him, his voice was different from everyone else's, he had trouble making eye contact--and he was pedantic and perseverating, but his special interests were the SS, mythology/history, the primacy of the Nordic race, the elimination of the Jews, and the enslavement of the Slavs. Although his traits certainly shaped his behavior, he did not do what he did solely by virtue of his having Asperger's.
The fellow who stubbed his cigarette out on a child's eye probably did not have Asperger's--but likewise, he did not do what he did solely by virtue of his not having Asperger's. Nor are people without Asperger's illlogical "by nature" or irrational "by nature".
Individuals are logical, individuals are illogical. Individuals are just, individuals are unjust. To call what amounts to an entire species (except for a minority) irrational, or even insane, is nonproductive at best (as it doesn't change the situation), bigoted at worst.
I don't believe Alison was whinging and why would she need to go out and buy another pair of shoes? Surely the ones she's already got are fine?