Aspies For Freedom

I must ask this question  because when I put my definition on a french AS forum, I was considered as a troll. I don't understand, they keep being bullied and hunted for their differences, and they defend NTs ? I don't get it...

Anyway: what do you think of the following please ?

For me, NTs, as a group,  are just a bunch of alcoholic pawns who don't know what is friendship, and have basically nothing else to do together than killing their livers, brain cells, hearts, kidneys, ears and other organs in Night Clubs and bars / pubs (and i quoted the botellones of Spain, the nightly events in  Britain streets and the parties and spring breaks in US campuses as examples).
They are ignorant, very easily manipulated (having the behavior of a herd of sheep or lemmings), have no other goal in life than consuming and destroying the Earth. Plus, they  are intolerant against everything which is different from the mainstream...

in fact, I fully suscribe to this definition, which I find very funny:

http://isnt.autistics.org/

BUT, i would like to precise it is how i see them as a group. While I have no NTs friend, but many friends close to NTness but way out of the mainstream (political activists, roleplayers, gothic and hard rock fans, etc)...  and i work with NTs, which escape the definition i gave by their generosity, their culture, their open-mindedness...



to precise my POV, some quotes:

Men in Black:

Jay: Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it.
Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.

Matrix:

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

This one is obviously extremist, and i do not fully suscribe to it, but we must admit there is some kind of truth in this meanwhile...

NTs represent a huge majority of the earth's population, there is no way to generalize this to all of them.

I have my days when I just hate mankind, period...NT or not.  With all the unnecessary cruelty we inflict on each other, I wonder why we call ourselves "civilized".  

I remind myself that, though people can be difficult as hell to be around, there is still much kindness and compassion within us.  However, people are taught that goodness is weakness and in order to make it, they have to be competitive, back-biting and drop their good nature.

Vejita, you seem to talking about a certain group, probably young people who like to drink.

You are expressing how you feel about that select group. I think people get offended when they think that when a person talks about NTs, they are talking directly about their parents, relatives, friends, etc and get offended.

That seems quite narrow minded to me.

I have seen this happen:

Person1: I'm so annoyed, I went shopping and some NTs harrassed me and tripped me up then laughed. Ugh! I hate NTs.

Person2: Hey, you make me sick, my parents are NTs and are lovely.


Person1 was clearly not talking about Person2's relatives, yet instead of offering comfort to the hurt feelings of Person1, Person2 takes offence and insults them more.
Is that all to do with literal thinking and lack of empathy?

I say that it depends on:

A. Intelligence
and
B. How much of that they use

Smart NTs, or even less intelligent NTs who use what they have are fine.

The vast majority of the world though, are complete idiots of some sort or another.

A few of them are very nice idiots, but most are just nasty and petty.

I put my conservative estimate for "useless idiots" around 75% of the world's population.

Most of this, natually, is NT, since they make up like 97% of the world's population or something like that.

I suspect though that we'll find several new neurotypes among NTS if we look, and many with Aspie traits and neurological wiring who don't fit the diagnosis.

And FUBAR, I started a poll a bit before you posted that.

I think that we tend to internalize (meglomania, elitism, misanthropy, and cynicism) rather than externalize (agression) whenever possible.

A large segment of NTs  (I'm gonna say 2/3 since it's a nice round number and seems about right to me) tend to externalize more, often directing those traits that I mentioned that we use very violently against those that we do not like, as well as a number of others.

Yes, but I do think it does speak to a grand majority of them, at the very least.

So then would that mean that Oscar the Grouch is a parody of obnoxious NTs?

well I don't want to get Amy mad at me, but as you know Dogface you've been involved with a little bigotry of your own. Hypocrite.

Dogface I never said I deluded myself into beliving exercise wasn't necessary, if you got that I'm sorry. What I meant was exercising 24/7 to try and attain a weight that might be impossible for most people to keep isn't necessary.

Regarding NTs:

Humans in general love to follow the herd (that's why the herd exists - because the majority love to follow each other). This includes some aspies, though you'd expect autistics to be more likely to follow themselves than the herd it's sadly not true.

To me, any statement made using broad language that does not invite or imply exception, and that is negative in content, is inappropriate.

Lets start with alcoholic.  Only a small part of the NT population is under the influence at any point in any day, and that includes weekend nights.  My friends and I so rarely drink that we would discard your statement on it's laughable inaccuracy to start with.  We would assume you were either trying to be funny and failing, or a troll out to stir things up, because you couldn't possibly believe this, it's so far off truth (the stuff you cited for examples relates to a small age group and then only to a small percent of that age group.  As a parent, and there are more of us than of young adults, I can't relate in the slightest to any of those events and, honestly, never could).

On intolerance, I would take offense.  While those who are bigoted and prejudice are often more obvious in society, they are, in truth, outnumbered  far and away by people trying to be kind to everyone and accepting of differences.  No one is perfect, and not even those who try are perfectly kind all the time, but to assume "we" are like "them," whom we lack respect for (just as you lack respect for them), is hurtful.  Most of us feel bad to discover our mistakes in this area, and are continually working to improve.  To have that effort just carelessly thrown out ... well, it isn't being fair.

On destroying the Earth, the human species is certainly doing that.  But it's hardly exclusive to Aspies or any other group to care and work to change this reality.  There have probably been more NT's than Aspies active in creating recycling programs, working to encourage reuse, creating bans on harmful chemicals, etc - note I only say that simply because there are so many more NT's.  Based on simple numbers and percentages in society, how many of these things could exist if at least some NT's were not on board with the concept?  They've been too broadly embraced.

Following the herd and so on ... that's OK.  I'd like to think I don't, but this statement is something I can laugh at.

You, yourself, admit you choose to exclude all these people you know from the definition ... which implies that you do not, personally, know very many, if any, NT's that meet your own definition.  You appear to have created it from vague impression and not knowledge.  That, simply, is prejudiced.

I can understand how you formed the impression, and I have been around this community long enough to understand why you write the way you do, but hopefully my explanation can help you see why even your Aspie community friends considered the definition too trollish to allow.

Interesting question.

Personally, I think you have to take those kinds of statements in the context of when they are made and what you know about the person making them.  Someone who only expresses that kind of sentiment in the heat of a frustrated moment - I would probably ignore it and get on with the business of making them feel better.  My kids say they hate me all the time; I don't take it seriously.  I know what they mean to say is that they are mad at me and hate something I've done, and if the moment allows I will ask them to rephrase.

I think this may be an area that can be taught, and I believe that NT's are probably just as bad at taking offense when they shouldn't as Aspies are; it's probably a univeral trait having more to do with what someone expects to hear than what they actually do hear, and what issues they are personally sensitive to (hence, in your example, person 2 has been hearing so many negative comments about NT's that he is inclined to assume person 1 is talking about his relatives).  Not sure about that, just throwing it out as a possibility.

Plus, as a syndicated columnist once pointed out to some parents wanting to discipline their child for saying "I hate you," any sentence that begins with "I" is by definition a statement of how that one person feels at that moment; a personal expression, as opposed to an attack (although I'm sure there are exceptions).   "I" is about the person making the statement, not about the person(s) referred to in the sentence.

I also think most NTs don't have a concept of what it's like to live most if not all your life, as being considered abnormal or wrong. So some people think, "Well why are you commenting on this, you don't know what it's like to not be accepted"

I don't think you were referring specifically to me, but I will share that I think most people have had experience with not being accepted; with being cast out, called wierd, and so forth.  While I think Aspie's, on average, have experienced a lot more of it, it is hardly an experience unique to the group.  Some people respond to that experience by grabbing social power, and being rude to others:  dog eat dog, if you will.   Believing the only way to not be marginalized is to marginalize others.  Others will learn to avoid the treatment while using memory of the experience to build a base of empathy for others.  I've tried to choose the later path, imperfect as I am in applying it.

And, I certainly know what it's been like for my son.  Before we had a diagnosis there was a lot of social conflict for him.  He knew he didn't fit in, but he wanted to.  Not knowing "why" was the worst, I think.  That was difficult to watch.  Fortunately, the kids around him have learned.

Everyone can learn.

But, I do see why someone who has had a lot of negative experiences might use strong language against the group they see as having caused those experiences.  Hard to blame them.  But, they too can learn - hopefully by gaining positive experiences.