Aspies For Freedom

Well, does he really know his wives?

With regard to what Sata Andagii wrote; from personal experience I don't believe that females with AS are rarities, in fact I believe that there are just as many females as males on the AS/HFA end of the autistic spectrum.

I personally believe that sexism and anti-autistic prejudice have, in my generation and previous generations, worked together to pretty much destroy any chance of career success in life for many female Aspergians. The problem is that the talents of females with AS are often mostly useful when applied to what are considered in our culture to be masculine interests, so in our sexist society that still socializes and educates kids according to gender stereotypes, these talents may not be visible, valued or nurtured, even by the female herself. A girl who has great innate ability in visual-spatial reasoning isn't going to find many ways to use her potential, unless she is Temple Grandin. Grandin grew up labelled as an autistic freak, and she appears to have embraced that negative medicalized labelling herself, so I guess she may have been less concerned about appearing unfeminine in her career, as she must have already been accustomed to being regarded negatively by society.

Ms Singer, have you bothered to read any of the books in the reference section?

And regarding Stanley Kubrick, he did have friends or acquaintances, but he was also most eccentric, and he has a reputation as an eccentric who collected stuff, rather like Warhol with his hundreds of boxes of treasures. Warhol had people hanging off him like flies, but there's no argument that he was socially odd.

A while back I had a look at a few Kubrick biographies that were in stock at a local second-hand book shop, and I've mentioned some of Kubrick's eccentricities in my big list. I noticed in one of the biographies of Kubrick that the biographer had written something like "Kubrick was a friend of mine (to the extent that a person like Kubrick can be anyone's friend)." I don't recall the exact wording, but there was a subtle but definite hint that Kubrick was in some way distant or trying as a friend, or an unusual type of person. I know that there is at least one fairly old biography published about Kubrick as a person, and I'm sure it would make an interesting read.

The thing that one has to remember about famous people with AS compared with ordinary folks like us with AS, is that when you are famous or rich or highly respected in a career, people want to know you, and some people are probably happy to live with a certain amount of eccentricity or trying behaviour from a famous person as a friend, while they may not give the time of day to an autist who is not world famous or highly talented. When you are rich you can have the best friends that money can buy, and when you are judged to be an artistic genius, you will have admirers and people who want to learn from you and work with you to further their careers or for the thrill of witnessing a genius at work first-hand.

Thanks for the tip Ellen. I'll have to have a look at that on DVD.

I think the main things that would be observable from watching some person that might disprove the idea that they were AS would be normal-looking, animated body language, used during social interactions, maybe combined with a totally normal-sounding voice (neither monotone or odd in accent or over-modulated). Social interactions that have a real sense of intimacy, such as flirting, touching or joking around with others, with normal eye contact (neither too much nor too little) and mutual use of body language might be unlikely in an autist. A lack of obvious autistic behaviour wouldn't rule out AS as I know that some very autistic people don't stim or "space out" or flap in public places. Not all autists avoid eye contact, many make eye contact for longer periods than is the norm.

Some quotes from Kubrick's Wikipedia entry:

"Kubrick was noted for the scrupulous care with which he chose his subjects, his slow method of working, and his reclusive personality about his films and personal life."

"Kubrick had a reputation of being tactless and rude to many people he worked with."

"Although Kubrick was greatly disliked by many of the people he worked with ..."

I wonder why so many of Kubrick's biographers have felt the need to write so much about his personality?

Roald Dahl is one of those people that I've heard about and thought seemed to have the misanthropy, the intellectual curiousity and the interest in odd things that characterize AS, but upon learning more about the man, decided that he seemed too socially clever and concerned with his social status to be AS. It's interesting.

Regarding Prince, sure enough he's weird, but why?  I have never read deeply about him as a person. As a general rule, when the media ridicule a celebrity and call them a weirdo, and generally appear to dislike the celebrity, I think that is a sign that the celebrity may be AS. Prince certainly falls into that category, along with Michael Jackson, who I believe is AS. But on the other hand, Prince has always seemed to me to be a very feminine personality, and that would seem to be the opposite of what autism is all about. Sexuality has been a dominant theme in his work, but is he a hyper-sexual person in his private life? If that were the case, it could be caused by a neurological condition. Intellectually gifted people are often eccentric. He may well belong in that category, I don't know. Does anyone remember what happened about a baby who died? Did the child have a genetic condition?

Mariah Carey? I know some aspies who have flat, monotone voices who can't sing a note, and others who have damn weird voices. I have always thought that autists have difficulty controlling vocal pitch, but that may be more stereotype than fact.

Regarding Michael Jackson, he's not just eccentric, he's been despised and ridiculed by so many people. He's undeniably a social outcast. He does have many fans and defenders, but there are also plenty of people who clearly despise Jackson, for apparently no better reason than that he is a "weirdo". It's not as though there was any evidence behind the big court case. If you read some of the old stuff written about Jackson when he was rising to prominence beyond his brothers, it's quite sad to see that Jackson was apparently also an outsider within his own family. I got the impression that Jackson was resented in his own family because he had risen in status from the lowest in the family pecking order to someone who was regarded by the world as well beyond his family's level of talent. How could you explain all this except with reference to AS? A huge talent that many respect, but a personality that many dislike? It seems that the world is certain that Jackson is mad, but I don't think he has ever fit any of the broad categories of mental illnesses. As far as I know he's never gone off the deep end and been put away, so what's he got?

Jackson fits the stereotypical picture of the autistic genius nicely; a child prodigy, precocious musical talent (musical talent is one of the areas in which savantish autists may display superior talent), no luck regarding relationships, growing distrust of humanity and a withdrawing from public life. Jackson is like Lewis Carroll, (who has been identified as having had AS), in his preference for the company of children over adult peers. I think Tourette's may be a factor in Jackson's unique dancing talent, with it's strange crotch-grabbing, and Tourettes and AS seem to got together quite often. I saw a documentary about Jackson in which it was revealed that his sleeping patterns were totally out of synch with the rest of humanity, which is a common thing among autists. I've also got to wonder why Tim Burton (who has been identified as possibly AS by his wife) chose to model his Willy Wonka character so obviously on Jackson, also giving Wonka so many autistic characteristics. Birds of a feather flock together, and I've noticed that some of the more odd celebrities have at one time or another had a friendship with Jackson.

If it appears that I'm ignoring the discussion in this thread, I'd like to explain that I appear to be repeatedly missing out on being notified of replies in this particular thread. The last notificatioin that I recieved for this thread was on January the 6th 2008.

Regarding Bob Dylan, I saw at least two different pieces of movie/video of him rocking in what I thought was an autistic manner when I watched part of one of the parts of the two part doocumentary on Bob Dylan's life "No Direction Home". I guess if anyone were to watch the whole thing through they'd see more rocking. I believe Dylan has a reputation for rocking (and I don't mean rock and roll).

I've wondered about the philosopher Popper (my own personal favourite philosopher) and the author John Kennedy Toole as well, with regard to AS. It's just intuition, I don't know a lot about either intellectual. Popper made a major contribution towards the sceptical/scientific world view that I think is very much compatible with the systemizing/rational/autistic/scientific/masculine way of thinking that seems to be the major strength of autistic intellectuals. If you look at my list of "famous aspies" there are many very prominent atheists, agnostics, scientists, philosphers and critical thinkers in it.

I've never read Toole's novel, but I think the title of it "A Confederacy of Dunces" sounds like a reference to a situation of persecution and misanthropy that is all-too-typical of the experiences of autists. What autist hasn't been in a situation in which they feel that they are being persecuted by a conspiracy of dimwits? Here is a quote from the Wikipedia about the title:
"The title derives from the book's epigraph by Jonathan Swift: "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

That is sooo Aspergian! Jonathan Swift is on my list of "famous aspies". Swift was identified as AS in two different books, one by Prof Fitzgerald and the other by Prof Ioan James.

H. P. Lovecraft has been on my list for a long time, because a science fiction buff wrote a piece about AS in which he speculated that Lovecraft and others were on the spectrum. I think Lovecraft has been mentioned as possibly AS a few times in this forum before.

With regard to Michael Jackson, I don't know of any official diagnosis of any condition. I think he may have Tourettes and AS but it's just speculation. I have read that Tourettes is thought by some authorities to confer cognitive gifts as well as the obvious difficulties that go with the condtion, and I think a combination of TS and AS may result in a type of person who is quite a distinct type. I think Mozart and Glenn Gould may have had a combination of conditons. Oliver Sacks has written of a “phantasmagoric” Tourette’s that can alter a person’s character and creativity. Well, I think this “phantasmagoric” Tourette’s may actually be AS + TS + IG (intellectual giftedness) or even something more exotic. Sack's interesting article can read through PubMed Central:

Sacks, Oliver (1992) Tourette’s syndrome and creativity. British Medical Journal. Vol. 305 number 6868. 19-26 December 1992. p.1515-1516.

Regarding Bill Gates: I think it's a certainty that he, like just about everyone on my list, has two neurological abnormalities: intellectual giftedness and AS/autism. I do not know of any official diagnosis, and I don't recall that Gates has made any public statement on the topic of autism or AS. I wish a journalist would ask him about it. He has been seen rocking many a time. Bill Gates has been in my list for a long time, as there are many different books and articles containing or mentioning speculation that Gates is on the spectrum. I was rather surprised in 2005 when MSNBC.com published such an article, considering the corporate structure of that company. There's a rather amusing old book about Gates:

Rivlin, Gary (1999) The plot to get Bill Gates: an irreverent investigation of the world's richest man and the people who hate him. Random House.

Rest in Peace Bobby Fischer. He's gone now but I believe he was an autistic legend ever since he was a boy.

My big list now has 119 names on it:
http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.com/2...rtant.html

I remember enjoying reading that book by Karl Popper when I was a philosophy student, and it wasn't even on any reading list. I was such a studious student (a very long time ago).

Isn't it such a pity that that Logicalconclusion never did two minutes of homework before writing?

Incorrect assertion number 1.
The term "autistic psychopathy", as used in the English translation of the 1940s paper about AS by Hans Asperger, is absolutely different in meaning from the terms "psychopath" or "psychopathy" as used in the late 20th and early 21st centuries (now). Waaaay back in the 1940s the term "psychopathy" in Europe was just a general term for mental disorder. It had nothing to do with lack of emotions or badness.

Incorrect assertion number 2.
Professor Fitzgerald, If my memory serves me well, did not diagnose Hitler with Asperger syndrome, and he did not diagnose Hitler with the modern day concept of Psychopathy either. In one of his books he diagnosed Hitler with a condition that I believe is something that was made up by Fitzgerald himself; "autistic psychopath". I think Fitzgerald made it clear that this usage of the term psychopath was not the same as the usage by Asperger, therefore he did not diagnose Hitler with AS. In the book Fitzgerald created a table of characteristics explicitly comparing two different forms of psychopathy, that type which is I guess the same as that described by Dr R. Hare and the PCL-R, and a type of psychopathy that Fitzgerald seems to think is an autistic version. The two types are clearly described as different in characteristics. The autistic type is, I recall, characterized by a "strong superego" or something like that, which is very odd. As far as I know Fitzgerald's autistic psychopathy is not recognized by any professional body, and I'm sure it isn't in the DSM, so I see no reason why anyone should consider Fitzgerald's diagnosis of Hitler as anything like a formal diagnosis of anything.

Incorrect assertion number 3.
That autists lack emotions. If only I had a dollar for every idiotic, brain-dead piece of hack journalism or dimwit professional advice article I've read that asserts that people with autism/AS lack emotion, only to go on to describe a list of highly emotional behaviours, such as bad temper, anxiety, depression, obsession etc, that are also supposedly characteristics of AS/autism. Well HELLOOOO!

If anyone is unconvinced that autism and psychopathy are not totally unrelated conditons I invite them to peruse a proper modern diagnostic intrument for psychopathy, and see how many of the characteristics of it are incompatible with autism.

I believe psychopathy and autism to be mutually exclusive and opposite conditions, because to meet all of the essential criteria for psychopathy one would need to have an ability at social manipulation that one cannot have and still be autistic, and one would also need to have a cold, impulsive and careless temperament that is the extreme opposite of the anxious, orderly, cautious, conservative temperament that is typical of autists.

A while ago someone wrote that they thought Daniel Johnston is autistic. I don't know enough about the man to have a firm opinion on that question.

Regarding Philip K. Dick, one must always remember that he took a lot of stimulant drugs, and heavy use of stimulants will make you go nuts after a while, regardless of your pre-existing mental state. I think Hitler used a lot of stimulants as well, to keep him on top of things while he battled with untreated medical illness. It's no wonder he was such a snarly ***. I think a lot of people who supposedly had or have mental illness are actually affected by psychoactive drugs, drug side effects or untreated medical conditions. This is why I have so little regard for psychiatry and psych drugs; so often they are only employed when the real doctors haven't done their job properly, or when people's lives are the problem rather than their brain.

I believe Philip K. Dick has been identified as a possible case of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and the weirdness that can accompany this condition (which can easily be misidentified as mental illness). I think AS is also a strong possibilty, as Dick has apparently created some fictional characters who are clearly autistic, and I also think the replicants in Blade Runner are very much like aspergians. In the story they are hard to pick from "schizoid" people.

I have no respect for the validity of the diagnostic categories of "schizoid" or "schizotypal". Some AS experts are happy to admit that people with AS have been given such labels before there was widespread awareness of AS. HEAPS of the famous people who have in recent years been identified as AS have in the past been identified or even institutionalized as "Schiziod", schizophrenic, etc, despite no evidence of loss of sanity combined with huge intellectual achievement. Janet Frame came within a hair's breadth of getting a lobotomy! According to what I have read about schizophrenia, it is supposed to not only make people insane, but it is supposed to impair many important functions of cognition including memory and concentration. So how can an undisputed genius like Kant or Newton have schizophrenia or one of the supposedly pre- or proto-schizophrenic personality disorders? It makes no sense.

I don't believe there's any proper evidence that one can predict that a person will become psychotic later based on traits like "lack of affect" or "odd beliefs" or reclusiveness, but this is the justification for using labels such as "schizoid". People who have this diagnosis without any insanity can be put on very nasty anti-psychotic drugs based on the prediction that they will go insane later if not drugged. This is clearly unethical and unscientific. Either you're nuts or you aren't. We mustn't forget that not that long ago autism was regarded as a symptom of or the same as schizophrenia.

I have in my posession a biography of Tim Burton "Tim Burton: an unauthorized biography of the filmmaker" by Ken Hanke . Burton is clearly a private person, but I think there is a information in this book that is suggestive of AS. I have only had time for a quick look in the book. Anyone interested in this subject?

I understoood what you wrote. I've read that Johnston is apparently diagnosed with bipolar, along with half of the population of the US and some of the intellectually disabled residents of the suburb in which I reside. Bipolar appears to have replaced AS as the current trendy mental diagnosis.

I just thought I'd point out that some people think these people may be on the spectrum. I think a lot of people who are thought to have mental illnesses may be solely autistic or drug-affected, or both.

How much credibility as a diagnostic category do you think "Schizoaffective Disorder" has? It's the diagnosis that the shrinks give a person when they can't decide if they are bipolar depressive or schizophrenic. Doesn't sound like science to me. I believe this was the label given to David Helfgott. If he only has a mental illness, shouldn't it remit at times? Geniune illnesses come and go. One can be cured of a geniune illness. I've never seen any visual recording of Helfgott in which he appears normal. I wonder why Geoffrey Rush did such obvious eye contact avoidance when he was playing David Helfgott in the movie "Shine"? Does Helfgott do this himself? There is no mention of eye contact avoidance as a criterion for Schizoaffective Disorder in my copy of the DSM.

Did he really have charm and charisma, anyway? A strange Germanic kind of charisma, I'd say. Would Hitler have a chance if he were running in the current US elections? I don't think so.

I would never have thought that the infamous Dr James Watson enjoys the same pastime that I do; identifying famous people who may have AS. I would argue that he sees an autist every time that he looks in a mirror. He thinks Rosalind Franklin may have had AS.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/t...630748.ece

What the hell has all this got to do with famous people? I think some of the more recents posts in this thread belong in the "Waffling on a load of tripe" thread in the Pointless Prattle section of this forum.

That was my point. People certainly can acquire knowledge and insight, but one can't "lose" AS, and even if one could, why would one want to?

I don't see what the concept of "losing" AS has to do with famous people. Most of the famous people in my list were significantly and pervasively unusual for their entire life span, to say the least.