Aspies For Freedom

Hi anbuend, you said -

"I have a problem with declaring ourselves specifically a minority. The way in which we are discriminated against parallels the way other disabled people are discriminated against (many autistic people have prejudices which don't seem to allow them to see that)."

It does parallel the way other are discrminated against, and there are people working for other disability groups too, I am choosing to work for autistic rights, as its an issue that personally affects me, and I know a lot about it, how can all of us work for all issues?, it would be an enormous task, most people focus on one issue or group. I am very surprised that you think many autistic people have prejuduces in that sense. It is FAR greater in NT's that I have met, so much more so.

"I think it is important to focus on that we all need this protection, not just one tiny subgroup of disabled people, but all disabled people. (If people want to get snobbish about whether autism is "a disability" or not, all I can say is that in my country I'm currently dealing with life and death issues for all disabled people and that fighting specifically for autistic people's international-law rights at this point and leaving out other disability groups in the process seems incredibly short-sighted and narrow-minded. I don't care what terminology any individuals use but autistic people had better be covered under disability law or there will be enormous problems.)"

Anbuend, I dont know how much time and energy you have, but I know that to keep up with issues in the autistic community, and medical news, the law, and working on the sites etc, takes up all of my time. I dont see how I could work for ALL disabilities, and acquire knowledge of them all, and legal issues for each, I think it would be impossible to do each of them justice. Why is it narrow minded to focus on one issue and help that? Is it still helping, and its a positive move. I think you are being overly critical. If someone wanted to go to court over a legal battle concerning Down's syndrome, I wouldnt dream of saying to them "you are being narrow minded because you aren't including autism too".

Anbuend, you have very good values and ideals, but it is unworkable to fight for all disabilities as a whole.
How could I possibly ascertain if all people affected by all disabilities wish to be regarded as a minority group?
Its very diffiicult to get opinions of the members of the autistic community that we have access to online. Most have chosen to express no opinion either way. How could I ask the millions of disabled people all around the world?

You said "It's like saying "We'll work for people with athetoid cerebral palsy first, and then maybe the rest of you later."
Anbuend, in the UK I couldnt possibly get legal aid and legal advice relating to an issue that I have no personal connection with, and I certainly couldnt pay to get legal advice for all disabilities, but I do have a chance of getting legal help for something that directly relates to me and my family. Its a very strong practical consideration.

You said "If I seem impatient or irritated, maybe it's because right now there's a crisis going on that may threaten my own life soon and I can't afford to be narrow about it."

I do understand.

You said "There is no international protection for, for instance, black people in particular (who are discriminated against in my country and some others). There is protection for racial and ethnic minorities."

Actually that is incorrect. If you look into the work of the UN, specific minority racial groups are protected. Look at those particularly in Eastern Europe as an example.

Mish said "I do agree on that, people are more likely accept all disabilities (including those on the Autism Spectrum) as a valid minority than one smaller group and if there is already a movement towards it, why not go with something that is already established, it decreases the footwork first and foremost and the whole thing doesn't fall on an 'individual's back."

There is no movement for all disabilities to be made a minority group, as I have said it would be a gargantuan task to do that, its completely unfeasible.

I think you are both missing the point also, I dont want the autistic community to be a minority group because we are disabled, as that is an issue in itself, its more to do with our own culture, ways of communicating, and the issues involving cure and therapies.

Loot at this statement from the UN "What are special rights?

Special rights are not privileges but they are granted to make it possible for minorities to preserve their identity, characteristics and traditions. Special rights are just as important in achieving equality of treatment as non-discrimination. "

As autistics, we have specific characteristics, certain therapies aim to erase those, that is a different issue to many disabilities, offhand I can only think of the deaf community that wish to preserve their characteristics, which are otherwise described as a disability, but which some view differently.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs18.htm

Lili, this thread was locked for less than 24 hours due to a disruptive argument breaking out on it, this is normal procedure on any forum.

anbuend had given me permission by pm to remove the argument part from the thread.

anbuend was warned for the continuing argument, it was explained to her that if it continued she would have membership suspended for seven days, and would then be allowed to post again, sadly the argument continued and she has had her membership suspended for seven days, which was told to her in an e-mail.

It was only the second time since we started AFF that moderator powers have had to be used, that is much lower than most forums. Only one person has even been banned.

Discussion and debate are fine, pointless arguments waste everyone's time.

Stella said "The fact is that we exist, and have a need for social recognition and fair dealing which is not being met, irrespective of how we came to be here."

So true Stella, welcome to AFF

1. The debate here is one about Human Rights - "Equal Rights for Aspies."

2. When a government starts to respond to political pressure from an action group like ourselves, it does so at first in a general way, and only gets down to all the details of how these rights or benefits can be granted once it has agreed in principle that something should be done.

So we should try our best not to get too bogged down in detail if we can help it, tempting thought this may well be!!!

3. Who is an Aspie? Unsatisfactory though it may well be in some ways, I think we will have to say that an Aspie is anyone who defines themselves as an Aspie.

Gay people, for example, define themselves as gay because they know they are. They don't need doctors to tell them so.

Our case is not so simple, because some of us can only survive on DLA, where some kind of medical definition becomes necessary, or be dependendent to some extent on Social Services.

But this doesn't stop those who are able to fend for themselves - but who still identify with our struggle in the NT world - from defining themselves as ASD and helping us achieve some sort of fair and equal treatment.

Perhaps a few misguided individuals will claim to be Aspergians who are not for some purpose of their own, but very few NTs would want anyone to think they were autistic!

I suppose some people accused of criminal offences may claim to be ASD
who are not, but I'm sure that defendents sometimes
claim other disabilities or social disadvantages in the hope that the court
will go easy on them. I suggest.

As for worrying about who is Autistic, who is HFA, who is Asperger's, who PDD-NOS and so on, this is simply divisive.

Wherever we are as individuals on the Spectrum, the one thing we all have in common is Autism.



Stella, the points you make are so right, I agree entirely, I am wary of spending too much time getting bogged down in minute detail when really we have so far to go as a community to get recognition, I think if we start the process, it will take a long time, and during the process changes can be made as we proceed.
It would be good to have unity on the issues of labels, and the differences between them, I feel aspie, autistic, HFA, LFA, hyperlexic, etc, we are all on the spectrum regardless of label differences.

Lili said "Am I being paranoid if I wonder if agents who have commercial interests in the autism industry might want to put a spanner in the works of organisations that disseminate the view that autism/AS is not some terrible disease that any good parent would want to cure if their child had it?"

I think you are being realistic Lili, there is so much money involved for some of these people, it is their livelihood, they won't want to see it taken away from them.
NAAR and CAN make millions and fund so many scientists, plus we have all the cure-mongers selling chelation remedies and so much more, if someone like AFF could put even a few out of business I will be expecting a backlash from them.

There has been a post about the minority idea.
It included a poll, here are the results-

Should we declare ourselves a minority?
Yes

51%   [ 17 ]
No

33%   [ 11 ]
Dont Know

15%   [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 33

The majority did want to be officially seen as a social minority group. I think thats quite encouraging so far, considering its such a new concept to some members of the community.

Hi Morgaine  

For your point about epilepsy, auties, aspies and those with epilepsy were locked up in the past (some people have both conditions), and as with auties and aspies now, epileptics still dont get a fair deal a lot of the time.

For your points -

"the three-step process is one which tends to work - problem, solution, strategy. in this case, it would be:

1. this is what it's like to have ASD, and these are the diffiiculties we face.
2. this is what we'd like to be different.
3. this is how it could be done."

Err, that is what we are doing already....

Whoa Asman, thats not exactly educational dialogue is it now?

Morgaine is entitled to her opinion like everyone else, and to come up with suggestions, this isnt WP, so what goes on there is irrelevant here.

Sure vetivert.
We will tackle it shortly.

"but when push comes to shove, the cultural customs, or whatever else you want to call them, of ethnic/cultural minorities have to work within the framework of the country in which they exist, and the laws of that country, their environment, in other words."

You are right, thats why its a good idea to make a formal change and have us recognised as the social minority that we are.

As far as the mechanics of doing this, we are at the beginning of a long process with this, it wont happen overnight, we are raising the issue within the community, getting opinions, ideas and suggestions.
Also the idea is getting through to the media, we have had interest from some, and getting views from NTs too, most seem very keen on the idea, which is a pleasant surprise.
Throughout the process we can raise awareness and continue to educate.

Colourblindness is not on a spectrum of blindness, as people with colour blindness are not blind. Bit confused by how you meant that point to come across Maggie.

I understand that some people are not as keen on various issues involved within the autistic community, and its good to find out more.

" My comment about real autism is in reference to the
so-called autistics who have consistently failed to prove who they say they
are, diagnosed with autism."

Since when does he have the right to ask anyone to prove a diagnosis?
Would he like us to wear arm bands to denote what we are? Can he prove he is NT and not an aspie with a grudge?