I watched the video clip. It was extremely negative.
I hated it when the girl said she wished she had a sister who did not have autism. I would punish a child for saying that.
I was very puzzled by the mother saying "people just can not understand why an 8 yr old girl is crying in the park because she does not want to go in the swing". Why would someone force a child to go on a swing or play when they do not want to?
People seeing this after getting a positive prenatal test for autism would have an abortion. It is absolutely useless. It is just a pity feast.
Sadly, the posts after mine have totally confirmed what I said.
While I sympathize strongly with people who have been bullied, or who have heard painful things said to them or about them, I have heard not a scrap of sympathy for the people in this film and what the anguish that they have had to go through.
Mostly what I've seen instead, again is, total self-absorption, and ludicrous attempts to impart the worst possible motives for both the producers of the film, and of the people who share their feelings in it.
I know many people in this forum no doubt bristle at the idea of someday being able to cure autism or at least prevent its expression somehow in people who may be genetically predisposed. I've seen a lot of happy talk about it being just an alternative way of being wired and (non)interacting with the world, etc.
One thing this film tries to do is break through that, to convey the reality that autism in a family extracts an ENORMOUS cost on everyone else in it.
And the motive is NOT to make people with autism feel bad about themselves, but to impart a sense of urgency in researchers, donors, policymakers, and the general public about finding such a cure.
Bizarre paranoia about mass-abortion plots does not reflect well on those who engage in it.
NTs need social interaction, warm feedback. It hurts terribly when a child doesn't smile, doestn't coo and play, doesn't talk. It hurts terribly when the high hopes that one had for a child are replaced with the grim realization that to get to the same place will require a mountain of effort. That's NOT "bigotry" or "ignorance" - it's an expression of a completely understandable pain at experiencing cruelly dashed expectations.
And calling for punishing a child for wishing that he sister were not autistic just leaves me speechless.
I don't see why anyone should be forced to feel the need to be sorry or appologise for being who they are, I also do not see why we should feel sympathy for people who choose not to accept us because of who we are, that really does not fit with me atall, that is like saying that black people should feel sorry for white people for having to put up with them, or gay people should feel sympathy for heterosexual people for those heterosexuals choosing to be uncomfortable with who they are.
I don't get your comment about trying to impart the worst motives about the producers, a prenatal test for autism is developed and they produce a video which not only makes out that everyone who is like us on the spectrum is a monster and advocates murder of the aforementioned autistics, sorry this is beyond coincidence even if it was not activities designed to portray any group of individuals in the minority as monsters is completely unnacceptable, sounds to me like a pro-white group making a video which showed nothing but images of black people using drugs, stealing cars, carrying guns, shooting people and various comments from police officers about the crime problems of black people, of course in this case even worse as they are doing it to these autistic people for whom they are rarther than for their choices in life.
Yes, I and others here I believe feel that it would be wrong to make fundemental alterations to a persons personality because the parents or society decides that their personality is inconvinient or wrong by the standards of an artifical construct of normal, of course this is not the point pre-natal tests are designed for the purposes of eliminating genes which are undesirable in the eyes of the parents and/or society not about "curing" anyone, murder is not the same as cure, and besides even if a cure was available fundemental alterations to the personality of an individual should not be attempted without the person whom is being changed having given their informed consent to the procidure, this requires that they are old enough to make that decision and that they have been fully made aware of the concequences of this including the fact that any such alteration would also severely hamper their abilities in their core interest areas by creating further distractions and overal limit their logic and cognative abilities however I doubt that those negative side effects would be discussed in full by psychiatric medicine, even now psychiatry has a tendancy to hide negative options from people.
Great for the video, shows how bad who we are makes everyone else feel, what about showing how that video and the attitudes like those expressed therein make us feel and the enormous toll that takes on us, not to meantion the enormous cost of propergating negative attitudes about us through a society in which people like myself and the rest of the Autistic community have to live.
Yes, maybe NT's do need social interaction and warm feedback, what about what autistics need, just like other people we need to feel that we are good people we need to feel we have value and purpose not to be made out to be deseased or damaged, as for the dreams and hopes being destroyed well that is more due to the way that psychiatry, the likes of Autism Speaks and general media portray recieving a diagnosis as doomsday, the problem in fact which causes so many Autistics not to meet those dreams even their own dreams and goals (Yes us Autistics do have dreams and goals in life by the way) is predominantly due to ignorance and biggotry from society when we try to push those goals in our life by finding employment getting into colledges and universities etc. Something this video only serves to make worse, I mean who wants to hire a monster?
As for the punishing of the child for expressing discrimination, sorry well clearly you must be NT and in no minority group of any description, because otherwise you would understand why discriminatory views in children should be discoraged in children and expression of them moreso, it is not acceptable to be discriminatory. Just because the discrimination was aimed at a group which is being slowly further and further dehumnaised does not justify it any more than it woud be justified if the child was to say "I wish my sister was not black/gay/<name of other minority group here?"
Sorry, I find myself now unable to do anything but feel equily as speechless about your attitudes towards this.
The child actually said "I wish I had a sister who did not have autism". Go back and check the video clip. To me that means the child wishes she had another sister who did not have autism but clearly she was meant to feel that her sister was nothing but a pain in the *** to her family. What would anyone do with a sibling who looks at their new brother or sister and tells their parents they do not want them and take them back to the hospital?
All the families saying that they could not do anything: fix their home, go out to restaurants, sleep through the night, socialize with "nonautistic" families because autism was ruining their lives.
How I am being paranoid about a prenatal test leading to abortions when more than 80% of Down's syndrome fetuses are aborted? People do hate other people who are different. Proof: I was in a restaurant with my friend who has cerebral palsy. She is not the most tidiest of eaters. A couple came up to me and told me that my friend should be put in an institution because she was disgusting and people should not see that. She talked to me like my friend was an object and just assumed that I was her paid caregiver and not a friend. The restaurant manager apologized and gave us free dessert.
I actually believe that some of the children were somewhat spoiled. Are you going to criticize at me for that one?
What I would really like to know is why the mother would put the 8 yr old girl into a swing when she was screaming? The child can talk. The mother even said she was screaming because she did not want to go in the swing. So why force her into a swing? Screaming must have become the most effective form of communication for that child.
I watched the video clip again. I did not hear anyone say anything about driving off a brdge. I suppose it was edited out.
This is the website's Mission statement :
"At Autism Speaks, our goal is to change the future for all who struggle with autism spectrum disorders.
We are dedicated to funding global biomedical research into the causes, prevention, treatments, and cure for autism; to raising public awareness about autism and its effects on individuals, families, and society; and to bringing hope to all who deal with the hardships of this disorder. We are committed to raising the funds necessary to support these goals.
Autism Speaks aims to bring the autism community together as one strong voice to urge the government and private sector to listen to our concerns and take action to address this urgent global health crisis. It is our firm belief that, working together, we will find the missing pieces of the puzzle.
Autism Speaks. It's time to listen."
Now, go read THIS website's mission statement
1. we do not want a cure.
2. we are mostly adults and no one seems to want to listen to us.
3. I don't think that anyone here is against teaching children with autism how to use the toilet, how to talk/communicate, life skills. We just have a problem with some of the methods used.
4. Nothing anyone here is going to say is going to convince me that the Autism Everyday video is beneficial to anyone. I still hate it.
BEFORE you quote me, it's as well to check your facts.
I am the parent of an autistic child, I also have many many similarities to that autistic child and while I would probably not get a diagnosis, consider myself a 'cousin'
Do NOT make the mistake of thinking I am in any way, shape or form allied to Autism Every Day or anything remotely curebie
Will respond more later when I am less angry. :evil:
Philantrophy is not very common. That is true philantrophy.
Marketting is more common. Have you noticed that most charities are using auctions, lotteries, funraising dinners, free gifts with a donation? - Big corporations giving donations with conditions that they can advertise. -Scientists on boards of charities to get money for research. - Pharmaceutical companies will make money on "cures" they know they have a good market for. Why fund anything that does not benefit oneself?
Reading this thread -- as well as other posts from aspies on this board, I find myself wondering if part of the problem here is a difference in perspective.
Yes there's a huge difference in perspective.
If I understand correctly, most people on the autism spectrum would love to have a cure for their sensory sensitivities, most would like to be able to read facial expressions and body language as well as NT do, and most would welcome a pill that would instantly teach language and communication skills to children that are having trouble learning to speak. If I understand correctly, however, many of the people on this board see these problems as co-morbid conditions, rather than central aspects of autism.
I don't think most autistics would want a pill that could do these things because that would be such a drastic change that wouldn't feel natural to us and would seem still like a drastic change from who we are on so many levels. I don't think sensory sensitivity is in itself considered an issue. I think understanding our sensitivity and being able to develope it in a useful way so its not overwhelming to use is what is desired by us. Simular thing goes for facial expressions and body language, we have them and can understand the facial expressions and body language of our fellow autistics just not necessarly able to do so with non-autitics.
I think a good way perhaps to understand it is like if you we not good at math and you wanted to develope your math skills so that you could become a mathematician and go on to have a well paying job as a mathematician you wouldn't take a pill to acheive this goal you would study hard. A pill to make people suddenly understand mathematics just don't make any sense to us.
Basicly any skills we feel we may need we'd rather aquere through learning them as skills. We feel that that can be learned as skills and that it doesn't make us of any less worth then NTs, as aquered skills.
We feel suggesting that people who already have the skills because the skills were natural to them at birth is somehow superior, better and of more worth then someone who had to aquere them insulting. Much as you might find someone with great mathematicial skills who have them from birth who considering you of less worth because you had to aquered your mathematicial skills from working at it.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that most aspies and other autistics see their autism as being a more central and fundamental part of who they are. I think that most would still see themselves as autistic even if they suddenly gained skills in reading facial expressions and body language, suddenly lost all of their sensory sensitivities, and suddenly gained the skills necessary to more consistently interact successfully with other people.
I think most autistics would still see themself as autistic even if they learned these skills yes. However I think autistics as awhole may not be able to agree on which of these skills they would want to learn or even considered necessary or unnecessary skills. I do believe though most would feel that we should be respected and accepted if we choose not to learn certain skills.
As for the sensory sensitivity again its not necessarly an issue in itself to us, being able to use it in a way thats useful to the individual is what would be a useful skill. I think it may be simular to how a blind person may describe being able to still see even though they cannot physicially see with there eyes, they still see just in there own way and if developed is a useful skill to them.
To anyone here. You cannot control 100% all the situations in your life. Anyone who thinks they can plan their life carefully so that nothing bad every happens, they will never have any disappointments, that they will never suffer any grief, never die - well, you are deluding yourself.
You just have to accept what fate gives you. What matters is how you deal with adversity. - what your true character is.
The reason people have children is to give themselves hope. Being able to see yourself and someone you love in a tiny little human being is reward enough.
Just say a couple want to have a healthy "normal" baby. They do everything they can healthwise to ensure a healthy pregancy. They even could get embryonic screening and implant a "perfect child". That child could receive the best health care from birth. It could be guarded from every communiciable disease. Coddled and wrapped in bunting from babyhood.
But still something could happen that could make that child ill and less than "perfect". There could be some accident that caused the child to become injured permanently. The child could have some genetic "flaw" that was previously undetected or they could just grow up and hate their parents. There are always risks. There are always problems.
If people do not want to risk not having "perfect" children then do not bother being a parent. GET STERILIZED!
No one has a perfect life. Autism is not such a huge tragedy, neither is diabetes, CF, or going bald. It is just a part of life. In the end, we all die anyway. Fear is the problem here. Fear of not being in control.
All I can see here is someone trying to use different arguments to feel they have convinced people here that they agree with prenatal testings for autism and/or cures. If that is the motive, then - people - just move on to more important pursuits. Enough time wasted.
If indeed there is more autism, a likely culprit is women having babies later than ever – something long associated with numerous birth defects. Another is the obesity epidemic. About 20 published studies have found that children from overweight moms, much less those who are outright obese, have higher rates of many types of birth defects. To point this out, of course, is to beg for a horsewhipping from feminists, fat activists, and trial lawyers.
Correlation does not equal causation. Who knows? Maybe women that carry the genes for autism are more likely to give birth at a later age? Maybe carrying the genes for genetic disorders also increases the chance of obesity? Maybe it's all just chance? Nothing is proved by merely stating a correlation.
Pikhq makes a valid point there, infact quite possibily carrying those genes would alter the age at which they tend to have children to later, maybe although not a sufficiant ammount of such genes for them to be on the spectrum themselves but they may carry enough of them for them to be present in the phenotype, maybe some caused them to be a highly sucessful person and as such they choose to persue their career, maybe it caused a few minor social differences not enough for a diagnosis but enough that finding a suitable partner who was still romantically interested dispite their subtle differences to actually get the the point of having a child.
GreenLion, even you yourself seam to have some of the symptoms, the fact that you seam to consider them noteworthy implies they are significant in your life, and also you seam to have polorised towards someone with similar abilities and weaknesses, probably because you are understanding of each other to some degree more than the average NT which does not posses the traits you have, does seam to me though that you are either possibly somewhat to the AS end or at least slightly onto the spectrum in some way even if quite close to the NT end (And yes there is an NT end, NT is technically on the spectrum as it varies across, or may simply be one end). In fact it is the fact there are people who identify as more or less NT whom have some of the traits to varying degrees which does go more towards indicating that it is simply human variance and biodiversity rarther than being a pathology which causes our neurodiversity, and that makes it no more wrong to be on the spectrum as it does to have certain parts of the eye colour spectrum.
I find it supprising also that having some of the traits that you would demand a cure be created, would you be happy to have all those traits you have removed from you? Can you honestly say that those traits have not in some way benifited you in your life by the experiences you have had, in some ways made you a better person for all your traits, the good and the bad? Can you honestly tell me that those traits may not be exactly why you are engaged in romantic relations with someone similar (which I presume is something which makes you happy to have that relationship) because of your traits, maybe in some way it made your more understanding of her and of some others differences?
If the latter is true I find it a real shame though unfortunately that that same respect and understanding for others differences does not extend to us here, maybe this is because we have the label? Is it the fact we have the label which makes you unwilling or incapable of accepting us? If so why do you think that it is the case, do you think that NT's with some of the traits should be "cured" or on that matter due to the prenatal test be detected inadvertantly during the test because they have some of the genes and also be destroyed.
And another question on the subject of the pre-natal test, would you personally be one of the people who would destroy a life on the grounds of that life being someone on the spectrum?
Also I note that you have not yet replied to my previous post, the one you said was a great post and you needed some time to think on it before replying, I will be looking forward to seeing your comments on it later once you have digested it fully.
I recommend to anyone considering marriage or other type of long standing relationship with someone to take a pre-marriage course. Marriage is a contract. Parenting is more than a contract, unlike marriage, it requires unconditional love. Any couple considering marriage needs to talk about having children, adoption, and their attitudes toward parenting. This is just part of what people need to talk about in a marriage.
It seems the parents who have the most difficulty in parenting children that do not meet their own expectations (or that of their spouses, if they knew what they were) are the ones who just "had kids". The child were just "accidents" of the relationship. There has to be some high level of committment that people are willing to make for any relationship: friendship, work, marriage, parenthood.
and you precive autistics as defective nt's, which is false.
* MttJocy points to Gareths avatar lol
Any children I have known who go to speech therapy - it is fun. The therapist makes up games for them to play and say the words or the sounds. They can also take the games home and play them with their family. Often the small children will get a little toy from the therapist. Something must be wrong when the child hates going to see the therapist. Most kids do not like going to the dentist or doctor but usually that professional finds some way to make the child feel more comfortable or let the parent stay with them.
SOJAW:
I think a kid who doesn't care about math and his memory abilities shouldn't be forced to work on them. If what other kids think of him bothers him then by all means help him in a way that he would consider benificial. If on the other hand caring what other people think of him doesn't bother him then don't work on it. If its not broken don't fix it.
I'd be as willing to fight for the right of neurotypicals to be neurotypicals and not care about non-social things as I am of autistics to be themself.
I consider the ideal balance to be to let people and chidren to value what they value without trying to force them to be better in areas that someone else considers more valueable and teach everyone that not everything the individual values will be valued by everyone else and to learn to respect differences rather they value what they value or not.
People shouldn't be made to become better at something just because someone else might pick on them because of there not being good at it or might not like them because they don't know how to do something, or might not be successful or happy in the eyes of everyone else.
I don't think it's that simple. How many children are there (NT or autistic) that actually WANT to go to school? Virtually every child that I've ever known would rather sit at home and watch TV or play video games than go to school. That being the case, should parents simply let their kids watch TV all day if that's what they want?
I wasn't suggesting its simple. I was just trying to explain myself in simple terms. Children are just as capable of learning from television and video games as they are in some institutionalized enviremental. So yes I'm all for parents simply letting their kids watch TV and play video games all day long if thats what they want to do. Parents can talk with their children and find out what was enjoyed and/or whatever thoughts they have on it. Sooner or later children will probably get tired of playing video games and watching tv and want to do something else anyways. If they don't then maybe they can make a career out of being a video game tester or a tv critic/reviewer.
Parents should be the first mentor to their children. Let them enjoy doing whatever there doing without pressure and help them learn from it and guide them and advice them as best as they can. But do not force them "for their own good or future happiness". Be encouraging, respectful and have patience. People generally exspect adults to have these qualities. IMO its not realistic to exspect this, when they do not teach there children to be so by being that way with them. Not being so teaches children that its ok to be discouraging, disrespectful, judgemental and impatient with others. Contrary to what appears to be popular belief classrooms aren't the only way children are capable of learning.
Children don't have enough life experience to know what knowledge they will need to achieve their goals. I keep thinking about my 8 year old cousin who desperately wanted to be a medical doctor, but didn't want to take science or math in school. No matter how many times we tried to explain it to him, he just would not accept the idea that a medical doctor needs to understand math and science.
Some adults don't have enough life experience to know what knowledge will be needed to achieve their goals. People don't generally force adults to undergo things because of their lack of life experience. People are quite capable of being successful in what they want to do without "proper" knowledge. Such as having an intuitive understanding of something without being able to explain the math and science involved or coming up with their own methed of learning and understanding something.
I also consider being allowed to make personal choices and make mistakes a far better methed of gaining quality experience and far more educating then forcing children to do things in hopes of "preventing them from making the same mistakes I did." I consider preventing this just delays the same mistakes from being made rather then an actual prevention and limits or delays experences, understanding, self-confidence and self-image.
Also, one other quick clarification: I totally believe in the right of every child to determine the ultimate course of his or her life. So, if that NT child wants to go into a profession that doesn't involve any math and involves nothing but social interactions all day long, I would completely support him in that. As long as he is a child, though, I would want to give him as many skills and abilities as possible so that he will be ABLE to make his own choices as an adult. The biggest tragedy, I think, would be for a child to grow up and be unable to pursue the career that he/she really wants because that career involves skills that he/she didn't want to learn as a child.
When my autistic son grows up, I completly support his right to follow the life that he chooses for himself. I believe that it is simply my job as a parent to give him as many skills and abilities as I can so that he will have the broadest possible range of choices as an adult. I'm not trying to turn him into a NT adult -- I just want him to grow up to be a happy autistic adult.
Any skills a person didn't learn as a child they can learn as an adult. So thats not a tragedy to me. Sometimes adults decide what they thought they wanted to do with their life isn't what they wanted after all and so have to learn new things in order to try to do what they want to do now because they didn't learn what they needed to know when they were younger. Everything can't be teached to children while their still children. Nobody can forsee weither anyone will be happy or not as an adult from whats done or not done as a child. To stop learning, to never learn to be happy, to never learn to have fun and to never learn to appreciate diversity are the biggest tragedy to me, however if someone is satisfied with what they know and chooses to stop learning that should be their choice regardless of their age.
When a parent puts what they want ahead of what their children want then it becomes an unwanted "treatment" or "cure".
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