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Full Version: Autistics capable of love news to scientists. How stupid!
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Love Complicates Life Even for the Autistic

May 30, 2006 — It was supposed to have been a spectacular Sunday in New York City for Paul DeSavino.

He and his mother, Marlene, were on their way to Carnegie Hall, where he was one of a group of piano students in a recital. The others were already there, taking turns warming up. But Marlene DeSavino sensed that there was something wrong with her son, the only autistic performer in recital that day.

"When we got to the rehearsal, and he played, I knew immediately as soon as he played the first couple of notes that he wasn't focused," she said.

Watch "Nightline" tonight.

Chopin's Prelude #4 is one of the sweetest and gentlest melodies ever composed. And Paul was just chopping at it.

"I gave him clues and cues while he was playing it — you know, 'Softer, good, good, that's right,'" Marlene said.

But the problem with Paul was entirely in his heart as he had told previously told his mother.

"He said that he thought that he was in love," Marlene said.

Paul told her later he was in love with an older woman. But problem was the woman didn't love him back. Unrequited love weighed devastatingly on Paul.

Who knew that a man with autism could suffer the pain of a broken heart? Does it even make sense that an autistic man is in love?

"Am I to say that what he thinks is love isn't love?" said Peter Gerhardt, executive director of Nassau Suffolk Services for Autism. "For him, it's love. And that's okay."

Human Nature

Gerhardt does not know Paul personally. But as one of the first psychologists in the nation to work primarily with autistic adults he concluded long ago that autistic people are as likely as the rest of us to stumble into human attraction.

"First of all, it's part of human nature," Gerhardt said.

"He just wants to be with her," Marlene said. "He wants her to be around."

The object of Paul's infatuation is the director of a job-training program he was enrolled in for several years. It's a relationship that could never be, some of his closet confidantes say.

"Feelings of love are so complex he doesn't understand the nuances," Marlene said.

And how do you explain that to a man who is otherwise always being encouraged to go for it, to experience the pleasures and challenges the rest of us enjoy to the extent he can. Paul is told to enjoy things like sports and music.

He has a job as a volunteer errand-runner at a New Jersey hospital and lives with several adults in a home of their own under supervision.

We filmed scenes of Paul in his home and at work for a "Nightline" special on autistic adults. This was a good time in Paul's life, before the heartache. But on that earlier visit — when Paul showed me his room — I learned that he'd had an earlier infatuation  with another teacher.

Paul is heartbreakingly naive in so many ways but especially about relationships.

To express his feelings for that earlier teacher he started wearing the same eyeglasses she wore, even though he has 20/20 vision.

"I can't believe how much I loved her," Paul said. "Well, she's a mother now."

New Idea for Experts
The idea that autistic people love the same everyone else is new to experts.


"The kids love their moms, they love their dads," Gerhardt said. "They will snuggle up. Yes, there is that classic distance, or they are not looking at them. But they'll sit next to mom and tuck themselves underneath their arms. That's love in his terms."

And yet a man like Paul who loves in his own way can seem so thoroughly at sea when trying to understand feeling like the feeling in a piece of music.

Jeff and Jessica, residents of a group home in New York, are mentally retarded and are dating. They are not the only disabled members of the household to be in boyfriend-girlfriend relationships.

Christine lives here while Greg lives in an apartment nearby. He saw her at a group meeting, and they have been dating since.

There was a time when romantic and sexual involvements among the developmentally disabled were aggressively discouraged. Sexuality was taboo. The sexes were kept apart, and some individuals were sterilized.

"I worked for two other social service agencies, and rather than dealing with it, it was very ignored," said Lisa Stenrantino, who counsels residents at the New York group home on sexuality.

Practice Dates

In addition to a general squeamishness, there were specific concerns about accidental pregnancy, disease and sexual abuse. The program at the New York group home, however, helps couples navigate the dangers with sex education and one-on-one counseling on when no means no.

Jeff and Jessica get coached in dating on topics such as where to go, how to dress and how to respect one another in a restaurant and in the bedroom.

All this intimacy is within reach of the mentally retarded, but is a world away from what Paul. Autism doesn't impair intelligence but the ability to communicate and make social connections.

So Paul is now practicing the art of dating with developmentally disabled women like Bev, who is mentally retarded and therefore better at it than he is.

The big problem for a man who seems to want to connect is how often he simply disconnects.

"He goes off into his own little world and that's the difficult part in having a relationship," Marlene said. "It's because he leaves them. He could leave them cold and he can't open himself up. He doesn't know how to do that yet."

'He's Growing'

Paul's mother has arranged these practice dates but hasn't forced them. She has no particular dreams of marriage for Paul. And she's nowhere near contemplating a sex life for her son because he may never be ready for that.

But that's not the point.

"He's growing and that's the important thing," Marlene said. "And growth is very hard and he'll tell me sometimes, 'This is too hard.' But God love him, he tries. He tries very hard."

Finally, at the recital, when it was Paul's turn to play for real in front of the full audience, he nailed his part  thanks to his mother's support and encouragement.

That's what moms are for, isn't it? But it can also be what friends are for, too. Female friends. And maybe someday he'll find one of those.


People think we are encapable of love! No wonder some think we're monsters!

i tend to become emontally attached to people quite quickly, but the ways i say i love you are werid for them.

how stupid to them that we are incapable of feelings?  becuase we show them diffrently?  when i get a crush on someone, i kind of go a bit obbesive about them and start incoprating them into my world, and i sometimes go paraoind about their saftey.
We're definitely capable of love, we just show it differently on occasion.

myownmind Wrote:
Oh my goodness.  

To me Autistics are perhaps more capable of love than neurotypicals.( If you all don't understand this, please ask me to explain).


As a married man who views his wife as precious rather than a burden I completely agree with this.

Sex is not the same as love, but I can still see your point. What is more worrying is that many people do honestly think that if you don't show emotions you don't feel them. This attitude to the extreme is what allows ABA therapists to say "this would be devastating to a normal child, but autistics don't feel pain so it's alright"
I feel Love. I also Feel pain. I also lack tact and if you put two and two together that ain't a pretty combination.
It's as much nonsense as the BBC news headline 'Autistics do not daydream'. :evil:
Here's another discovery for that scientist - Autistics feel pain when people treat them like machines who have no emotions by writing articles expressing suprise at this fact.  :evil:
Only some psychologists are scientists.  Then only some of them are good scientists.
love, as any emontion, is defined by the eye of the beholder.

in other words, just becuase we don't show love in the same way they do, it doesn't mean we don't love.

what a stupid article.  belittles us to say that it's a miracle for us to feel anything.  i feel all the time, just becuase i don't show it the way they will show it doesn't mean i don't feel.  i tend to put on a simular face most of the time, and a bit harder to note by looking how i'm feeling, but i tend to diguse my feelings sometimes in my tone, to avoid soical contact at times.
How many of us have had people tell us to smile when inside we're happy?

I've had that way too many times, it starts to get annoying after a while but I eventually thought since I don't display joy like most people it's understandable. What is not understandable is when people state that autistics do not feel emotion full stop. It is one thing to misread body language, it is completely another to believe someone literally has no emotions.

Gareth Wrote:
How many of us have had people tell us to smile when inside we're happy?

I've had that way too many times, it starts to get annoying after a while but I eventually thought since I don't display joy like most people it's understandable. What is not understandable is when people state that autistics do not feel emotion full stop. It is one thing to misread body language, it is completely another to believe someone literally has no emotions.


i've gotten the smile comment a few times.  it's just my smile turns out to be somewhat creepy...i usually do lots of funny stuff when i'm in a good mood, anyone that knows me a bit knows when i'm happy, just takes a while to know what it is.

I showed this article to Vernu.  He replied that a lot of NTs seem to imagine "love" as some sort of burning passion ie "kiss you with a thick pair of lips one minute, kick you with a big pair of boots the next".  :lol:

I asked him if he wanted more passion from me and he laughed and said that after twenty one years of marriage he'd have a heart attack if I suddenly became a different person, and that he's quite content with my reserve. He says he knows I love him because otherwise I wouldn't still be with him, which is very true.  I know I love him, and Lauren, and a select group of others.  

WHY don't NTs ever just ask us, or believe us on the odd occassions when we do try to tell them how we feel?  Is it any wonder most of us just don't bother telling them anymore?

Alison
This reminds me of a conversation I once had with my brother:

him: you never thank me for everything i do
me: sorry, i just forget to say thanks
him: no you don't
me: well, do you think i remember and then purposely decide not to say thanks just to be nasty?
him: i do now
Goldfish have feelings too

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,...00122.html

Quote:
VETS are calling on goldfish owners to take better care of their pets after research finding that the creatures have long memories, may feel pain and can even pine for their owners when they are away.

They claim the idea that goldfish have memories of only three seconds is outdated. “The public probably think it’s a bit quirky, but owners and all veterinary surgeons need to take fish seriously,” said Richmond Loh, a vet from Launceston, Tasmania. He presented a review of fish awareness science last week to a conference of the Australian Veterinary Association in Hobart, Tasmania.

The findings give some support for the arguments of Elliot Morley, the former environment minister, who argued for a ban on goldfish being given away at fairgrounds on the grounds of cruelty. He was forced to back down because Labour feared mockery in the run-up to the general election.

Among the studies cited by Loh was one carried out by British scientists in which fish learnt to push levers at particular times of the day to gain access to food. In another, two fighting fish were placed with an observer fish in a tank. For a long time afterwards the observer avoided swimming too close to the fish that had won the fight.

The studies also found substantial evidence that fish have the brain structures to feel pain and avoid dangers which may hurt them.

Loh said that many university committees looking at the ethics of experimenting on animals now gave equal consideration to fish.

In their paper — Ornamental Fish: Making Fish Smile, Sing and Dance — Loh and Matt Landos, his colleague, write: “Experiments on fish have examined the capacity of the fish to retain learnt information and be aware of consequences of certain responses . . . It has been established that fish do have some memory which can be recalled.”

Landos said: “We’re wanting to get the message out to vets to start looking more closely at fish and considering their welfare like they do other animals.”



I was reading the papers on Sunday and I couldn't help find it insanely silly that the egg heads had completed studies that determined Goldfish have feelings, but have after all these years only just figured out we have feelings too...

...you gotta see the irony  :roll:

"Stop poking animals and start looking at the people around you!" - Bleedin' scientists XD

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