Aspies For Freedom

I sent somebody an email to find out if they were my friend or not. I have included part of the response:

"it's difficult maintaining a friendship when you never actually see people, and harder still if you don't have regular conversations.  Incidentally, by conversations we mean the idle chit-chat that you don't seem able to share very easily, but which is actually right at the core of what we would define friendship to be.  A friend is someone you like being around, and that normally shows itself in conversation.  If all you do is ask questions, you're not really participating in conversation, you're just requesting information, which is pretty mindless and unimaginative most of the time.  You have to understand that this will always be a barrier to you - if you can't make conversation then you will always have problems communicating with the vast majority of people, and thus you are likely to struggle to make or maintain friendships.  I'm sorry, but that's the way it is!"

Does anybody know what idle chit-chat is? If so how do you do this?

Thanks,

Android

That person was pointing out facts, but in quite a harsh way.

Examples of idle chit chat -

The weather is nice.

I am happy.

I am listening to some good music.

I saw a film on tv last night.

I feel tired today.

They are usually meaningless and boring, but some people like to do it.
I find that stuff very hard, and have been called a robot for not doing such chit chat.

I find its easier to communicate in our chat room where other people are talking, and theres no need to make small idle chit chat unless you wanted to.

*** idle chit-chat.  You don't want to know idlers.  Get right into people's heads, it's what they want, whether they know it or not.

Also, here's the number one rule for social interaction.  It's not a secret but hardly anyone truly grasps it.  Look:

Nobody really knows anything.

NOBODY.  

Confidence really is king.  Act like you know, and the world will believe you.  Everyone doubts themselves socially, regardless of neurodiverse-babble (which is a lot of solipsistic self-pitying crap if you ask me).  People seek authority and guidance and a helping hand in the tough ol' world.  The authority might as well be you.  Doubt yourself and you're in trouble.  You just have to gamble, basically.  You'll be dead a long while.

A "robot" eh?  My wife is NT but was called "furniture".  Let me explain why.

First though, you say about chit chat:

I am not sure that is supposed to be the case.  Ok probably they are meaningless and boring by themselves but I suspect serve another function beyond being meaningless and boring.

If you look at the "structure of conversation" from a linguistic point of view (I have a masters degree in linguistics so may be overly fond of it but...), I think perhaps this chit chat is actually serving to "open a conversation" and perhaps set the expectations.

I got the following from google at http://www.heatonmanor.newcastle.sch.uk/...5B1%5D.doc:

[note.  I use linux so didn't worry about viruses when I downloaded it.  Please be careful and scan it if you have a look.  I don't want to be blamed for spreading links to viruses]

I think chit chat has a function to set up a conversation.  Pehaps chit chat sometimes doesn't go beyond chit chat but many times I think it leads into conversation.

I am sorry I don't have exact details on how this is done.  I think though that "conversational analysis" in linguistics looks at this kind of thing.

Anyway, my wife was called furniture because she couldn't have a conversation.  She is not a native English speaker so she didn't have all the words which is part of the problem but a bigger part is that the structure of conversation in her language is quite different than in English.

I teach English for a living to non-native speakers and have found that by explaining how the structure of conversation differs from thier language, they are much more willing to and better able to converse in English.  Even if they can talk, they often won't because they are baffled by what people are doing in English because it is not what they'd do in their language.

I was giving my opinion that its boring and meaningless, it is to me.
I dont know exactly why people call me a robot. Though I have been told something about 'lacking emotion' in conversation. This is online I must add, I dont chat to people in real life.

I have been told by some people that I talk in a monotone.  Sometimes I try to make my voice go up and down in pitch or vary the volume but I am not sure if it is all that effective.

I have tried the opener lines sometimes.  If too many are used, people will walk away.  If I really want a conversation, I have to ask people (nt or not) questions about themselves.  Usually then they will drone on and drone about what interests them and I have to pretend that I am interested adding in a few agreeable comments here and there.  Then after listening to them from half an hour talk about themselves and some topics that are very very boring to me, they come off with the impression that I am a very nice person.  They might as well be talking to a wall for all I care.  I have recently decided to stop trying so hard to have conversations.  The problem is that when I do want to say something, I either interupt people or they get angry with me (and decide that I am not a very nice person).  So it is either be bored and not express my opinions or have some short discourse and make an enemy.    I would prefer to avoid conversations if possible.

Regardless of your [friend] claiming conversation as being idle chit-chat, it does not have to be. It seems here that they are saying that you only ever request, and conversation means to transfer information between each other, whether idle chit-chat or something you both find interesting.

Seeing as having an interest is rare (for NTs), most of the time you're supposed to make do with chit-chat.

So I'd say: find something you're both interested in and when you talk about it, give your friend a chance to speak, and when they reply, you can at least acknowledge that they said something, or give your thoughts on it.

Just some blind tips, seeing as I know nothing of what goes on in your conversations.

This is all miles from the point.  You can look at the mechanics of conversation all you like, it MEANS nothing unless you're emotionally connecting.  

Read about Steve Gutstein's work in this area, and 'RDI', his therapy franchise.

Chit-chat and how I'd like to respond (but don't)

"What time is it?"
"The clock's on the wall."

"How are you?"
"How am I what?"

"How is the weather?"
"Go outside and check."

Most of them seem to be questions that one could easily find by one's self; or questions with little meaning like "How are you?" (The response is almost always "Ok", so there seems little point in asking).

Well, I never would say those things, I was just trying to show that they have little point (something that I've found I am not good at).

I've had to develop my "road map" of NT chit chat because I deal with the parents of my preschool class.  Usually at the morning drop-off interaction is fairly quick, as mum/dad have to get to work, but during the afternoon pick-up some parents like to linger, find out how little Josh/Sophie's day was, who they played with, etc.  So long as it doesn't last too long, I can manage, and most parents haven't twigged that I'm AS.  However, if it starts to go on too long, I have an escape route: I mention something their child is really good at ie drawing or reading, and let them rave on about how the kiddie does it at home, how wonderful they are, etc.  It seems most parents love to talk about how their child excels at something, even if it's only playing chasies in the playground!  This allows me to listen instead of actively talk which is a plus until they decide to go home.
Alison

I agree with that, I do often respond such as that.

I think you have the idea.  It's my feeling though that your responses will sort of push people away instead of inviting the people to interact with you, or at the least smile.  I like your attempts at humor and think you could develop it.

Eeeks.  This nearly got me killed once.  After work someone asked and I instinctively pointed to a building you could see from the bus stop with a big clock on it.  Unfortunately the bus shelter was in the way and the person asking was a gang member I now think and he was upset at my disrespecting him by pointing to a clock that wasn't there.  Actually, I think it was my "well get up and walk three steps and then look" comment.  Ok I am alive today and didn't get beat up or anything but...

Now I think depending on the person I may say...

A] (pointing my arms straight out) big hand on 4, small hand on six [or something like that and of course if it was a lady I'd throw in "am I the cutest human clock you've ever seen in the last five minutes (while nodding my head yes)?"]

B] "unfortunately there are many things I don't know and that happens to be one of them"
-or- "I only wish I knew"

C] (especially if was a lady) "why, do you have a date" [of course that is none of my business and I shouldn't be asking but hey they bothered me first] and maybe I'd throw in a "well you seem kinda dressed up, no?"

D] "let's check (walk to where I can see the clock) and then say 4:30."  Of course, if it were a co-worker or someone I could joke with I'd say "well the hidden clock says (check the clock on the wall) 4:30" [of course the clock is not hidden and I am teasing them].

Of course, all my answers are longer than yours and when tired it's simply:

E] "haven't a clue" -or- "not sure sorry" -or- "couldn't say"

I really like your answer.  For me though, I will try to be polite by helping the person answer my question and to steer the topic to what I want:

A] "How am I feeling about my small paycheck or about the high prices here?"

-or-

"How am I what?  Feeling about George Bush?  (show two thumbs down)

B]  "How am I getting to work?  By bus.  Gotta go." but actually that is just easier to say "late for work gotta go" but I feel it is more polite to repeat what they said a little.

C] of course if it were a lady [ok most of these 'if it were a lady' comments are things I did when younger in college and don't really do now], I may sort of stick out my arms and look over my body and say "well everything seems to be working fine".  I may even sort of check each limb one by one.

In generally, I think a lot of small talk is about something people physically share and since we all share the weather that is a common one.  I personally try then to change the topic to something else I share with the person.  Sometimes though I can't escape from the weather but at least manage to ask "how did you get so wet?"  when the person shows me their soaking pant legs.  [maybe they think] Duh?  It's raining stupid [yeah it's a stupid question but the purpose is to express a social interest -- maybe they got out of the car without looking or maybe a truck splashed them.  In a way, it's just a request to share information that I am asking.  I want to be able to share information with that person and so that is why I asked.  I guess my purpose is not to talk about the weather but just to establish a rapport as I may need to discuss something with them in the future].

I do try to be careful with what I say and to not be too sarcastic.  Also, some of these things are better for people you know.   I try to say something that is interesting or at least shows something about me.  I guess if people make small talk with me, I often reveal a little about myself.  I try to make the interaction interesting because the standard replies are pretty boring.  Sometimes I don't and sometimes my small talk is really boring. I'd like to think I can do it when motivated though.

[disclaimer:  I am NT :twisted: ]

I don't know much abou this.  I've seen book on linguistics describing prosody and how people use intonation to signal things like turn taking in conversation but from a practical view, I can't really say that reading about such things makes putting them into practice in a meaningful way possible.  I had an instructor once who was so monotone that people often complained about it.  Actually, I (NT that I am) didn't really notice since I was rather listening to the content of his message instead of the delivery.

I teach English to non-native speakers who have this trouble as well.  One problem is that they can't predict when they can turn take.  I don't work with them on that too much.

Rather I work on how they can participate in the conversation:

(this is from a handout for an intensive training course for new hires at a company that does a lot of business internationally)[Note:  we instructors discuss whether changing the topic is alway appropriate or not and whether we should really teach this or not, and we always decide that it is beneficial for our students even if they sometimes change the topic too suddendly and irritate someone occasionally]

Examples of what Americans might do:

(using questions to steer the topic)
#1 [A has been talking about baseball for a while, B wants to talk about food]
A:  When I was in Minnesota I went to see the Twins and got to watch the game from the owner's luxury suite.
B:  How was the food?
A: Oh it was great there was ...
B:  What kind of food do you usually eat?
-or-
B:  Do you like to cook?

(talking about any part of the topic)
#2 [C  is talking about baseball.  D wants to talk about his/her interesting experience]

C:  When I was in Minnesota I went to see the Twins and got to watch the game from the owner's luxury suite.
D:  Oh, I was in Minnesota one winter and nearly froze to death.  My car broke down on a side road and nobody came for hours.  The luxury suite sounds nice.

Oh gosh you are talking about me.  Mostly my mother and wife complain about that.  Sorry, no one is perfect you know.

Basically I have the same problems as you.  Either they talk too much or say I am interupting.  I do manage to have succesfully conversations though mostly with people I see regularly.  I am NT, but to some extent use conversation not truly for enjoyment but rather for the information I gain (about others or things or whatever I have kinda a broad mind on what is useful information to have).  Of course I try to make it enjoyable but sharing information is a big piece too.  I mean sometimes people will call to ask me a simple question and then go on for an hour of just hearing themselves talk and then thanking me for listening.  Sometimes there is useful information in that hour so I listen and sometimes I make find an excuse to not.

I have a feeling here that I am being a boring NT and talking about things that may not interest you but...  everyone does it... I am really trying to say things that may be of a common interest to us (which is NT/AS interaction)...sorry If I kinda miss the point sometimes

I agree, a fulfilling relationship is when you can enjoy interacting with and being around someone else.  Exactly how you go about it does not determine it's quality (although it CAN have a lot to do with the specific type of relationship  :wink.