Aspies For Freedom

I've seen that site, it has lots about comorbidity.  That bpd section was included for completeness and because they had a couple of half-arsed quotes.  Pity there isn't more written, because it's of particular interest to me.

It certainly is.

They're also often exceptionally good empaths.  Which is interesting.

i don't think bpd exists, it is nt speak.

yes
nts invent things to explain what they do not understand.
all disorders are merely symptoms that nts think are what should be treated
asd is not a disorder it is a different way of being and mostly it has nothing to do with how nts see it
Most of the diagnoses people are given reflect society and the person diagnosing more than the person diagnosed so are unhelpful for the person diagnosed

I agree, there are no absolutes and we should refrain from fueling conspiracy theories.  There are many individuals that need drugs as well as those who don't.  As an Aspie that has learned to cope, I definitely don't need any drugs.

Amy: I've had deep, rather than wide, personal experience with two people with bpd, namely myself and a girl I was involved with.  The empathy-bpd connection is fascinating.  Last week the author of this book sent me a paper on his experiments on bpd empathy, due to be included in the next edition.  There have been three experiments since 1975: the first two said borderlines were better empaths, the third, Ickes', appears to say that borderlines are merely more confusing (so relatively harder to read) but that they still may have better empathic abilities (I'm not sure the point of his experiment, to be honest.  I'll forward you the paper if you like).  Away from social science, borderlines' freakish abilities have long been talked about.  Like anyone, they become good at what they need to be good at.  That's how I explain it anyway.  Look at the DSM criteria.  Borderlines are *desperate*.  They develop coping strategies (my own main one is avoidance; my friend uses a lot of strong empathy and manipulation).

There are upsides, although they mostly appear as such only to the outside world.  You're guaranteed some pretty intense psychological sex/power games, which are simultaneously great and horrible.  Wide popularity comes to borderlines, along with the fear of being found out.

Is it real?  It's a way of categorising people, or an illness, or a personality disorder, or a dyslexic hip-hop threesome.  Semantics.

Maybe they didn't read you because it's mostly female bps who use empathy as a sexual thing.  The girl I know appears to be a classic case, only far smarter and sexier (or so I like to believe).

The empathy quotient test means nothing; it's designed to make dim but sociable people feel better.  A real empathy test needs another person standing opposite you.  Empathy is mirroring what someone feels the instant they feel it.  In some ways it's not so much a skill as a weakness of character.  Apart from with this one girl, I'm not great at it.  The way that bpd symptoms and AS ones interplay with each other is obviously interesting to me - indeed possibly is me.

Okay.  Now don't go passing off your opinion as fact when you've been told it's wrong.  

I can only find the EQ test on a newspaper website and can't get it to work.  I don't know what it tests for but it isn't empathy.

Wait... I did the test that begins "Time you're spending with an old friend seems less and less enjoyable. The two of you are drifting apart.  Response:"

That's emotional maturity, not empathy.  'Emotional Quotient' it says.  And I don't think it was designed for aspies; I think it was designed for sociable Sunday magazine slobs to feel better about themselves.


edit: it's that concept of 'emotional intelligence' from Daniel Goleman's bestselling book.  His book is subtitled 'why it can matter more than IQ'.  It's specifically NOT for aspies.  It's mindchocolate for friendly, undamaged fools to eat and feel good.

Is the test in the Guardian (also called EQ) different?  I can't get it to work with Firefox.

Damn, and I can't get it to work.  Still, it remains that without other people you can't test empathy.

I think Ickes' study separates empathy from face muscle reading, and says borderlines have become good at the latter.  

I can get this fake smile test to work.  I scored 17.  Seems I merely don't care how people are feeling.

I agree with both Florrie and Amy.

I agree with Florrie that diagnoses do tend to reflect those who make and use them.
They can be, and are ways of controlling.
They can, and do very often, take us away from the reality of things, and into some unreality.

But, as Amy says, life without such diagnoses can be tough for some.
Lots of people who suffer do make use of such diagnoses, may even welcome such diagnoses.

Maybe it can be similar to what Churchill said about democracy.
Democracy may be riddled with flaws, but still be better than other ways of being governed.
Diagnoses may be riddled with unreality, and allow for manipulation: but still offer something better than other ways of dealing with things.

I think we have to remain aware that diagnoses always do all of these things. Like a good thing with bad side effects.

I reckon you could work this into some kind of useful understanding.
You would have to carefully define empathy and borderline-personality disorder.

I would think that in this instance, empathy has to do with being aware of what is going on in another person, but not being able to control what you were experiencing.
AS people do experience much which is difficult to control. But, a general characteristic of the autistic, can be great toughness, great endurance; despite this difficulty in what they are experiencing. It may be difficult sometimes to call that toughness and endurance personal; but it is nonetheless controlling endurance.

Borderline-personality disorder sees the controlling centre very erratic, and very challenged in its endurance.
Maybe the BPD person is still striving to live through an essentially social way: but cannot manage what is involved in that.
The autistic person would seem to turn to a much more individual and independent way of doing.

Some AS people and BPD people can seem to share similar problems, similar symptoms if you like; and to do with how they relate to and deal with others.
But that needn't mean that there was too much similar in what made the two tick.

The empathy thing I think does apply to both.
AS and BPD people could both be specially sensitive to the reality of what is going on in others.
And, striving to cope with that sensitivity, may well be a shared difficulty.

That was a very good explanation.  I have to agree wholeheartedly with you on the endurance part.  As an Aspie, I find it quite natural to look inward instead of outward during times of crisis and therefore am able to maintain some semblance of toughness.