Aspies For Freedom

Being a Canadian and reading this disgusts me at the rates mentioned there. I was never offered prenatal screening tests other than ultrasounds during my pregnancy with Dylan, I wouldn't have done them, one blood test they do there is a higher than 70% false result rate (negative or positive) and it is not diagnostic yet women are treating it as if it is the definitive say that if they have a # of of 100 or another different number, that they are guaranteed to have a child with spinal cord problems or Down Syndrome.  I had the option actually offered me for the test with my youngest son due to issues in my pregnancy with Dylan. I declined. No matter what the prospect would have been, no child I believe was worth aborting, no matter the challenge or post-natal prognosis as long as it was no threat to my life to do so to term. I would never have done the amniocentesis either, the thought of terminating a baby, my baby was never an option no matter what the problem was as long as I could do so safely.

I agree, they overuse a blood test that isn't even 'diagnostic' to give your possible risk against others your age, but they don't tell the women that it isn't a 'diagnosis'. Idiots.

Although I definitely support the use of eugenics to make people prettier and smarter, the use of gene testing to eliminate a GROUP of people (such as autistics, Downs folk, women, blacks or Jews) is down right RACIST and should be banned by the law.

I used to live in Asia, and when we lived there having ideas about eugenics was just considered NORMAL. What people in Asia mean by Eugenics is NOT any sort of gov't control, but people looking at genealogy charts, getting tested, and finding the brightest, most attractive mates because they feel that it's their duty to their kids.
If, for example, a guy put out an ad for only wives over 5'6" with 120+ IQ, then that would be good eugenics. If a guy took over the government and decreed that all dumb people would be killed, then that is bad eugenics and it is anti-American. Good eugenics should be encouraged and supported, bad eugenics should be called out for the authoritarianism that it is. BTW I do not support Neanderthal theory because it does not apply to me as an autistic person of color.

What can  "anti-defect" ante-natal screening possibly mean?


No one would want us if they had the choice.

We are aberrations which ought not to be.

Our lives would be better not lived at all.

The world would be a better place without us.

We have no place in the human genome, and  should have no role in hominid evolution.

So let's fly our brave little flag, and if some say it's illogical then that's only one more misunderstanding to add to all the others.

Stella

People with Down's or neural-tube defects or a number of other conditions have a hard life. There's no getting around that. It's just true,..

So do the people facing starvation in Africa or people born into poverty all round the world. Should we kill them too? Who are you to say that a person with Down's has any less entitlement to be born than anyone else?

How about we 'euthanaise' anyone paralised or severly disfigured in an accident because their life is going to be hard?

I know a fellow that was abused as a kid by his local priest and by his parents too, he has severe mental health problems and will probably have them until the day he dies. His life is hard, REALLY hard, but he wants to live and do normal stuff that people do, whether or not he ever will do is debateable - perhaps we should just kill him and save him the trouble of finding out?


So why the opposition? It isn't as though the world needs more humans. We've already overloaded the carrying capacity of the earth by a factor of 100 or more and are wiping out more and more other species so that our own mindless increase can continue unchecked.

If all the poor people or people with below average (100) on this planet were sterilsed, would that make you feel better knowing that suffering would be less? Does having a hard life justify murder?


You're Pro-cure, that's fine, it's your choice, but please come up with a better argument than: It's the same with the foetuses being aborted for Downs or whatever --those are not human beings, they're just complicated groups of cells that would maybe eventually turn into a human being.

Well this is one time when I would be glad there may be one less uncaring parent in this world then.

My sons were human beings from conception  to me even if 'science' said otherwise, both my sons were loved from before they were conceived.

I am sorry that you wouldn't have cared less if your mom had aborted you or not, that's a shame honestly.

What are 'cells' to you are 'babies' to many people that try often for years and with fertility treatments that are expensive and each of those children are highly cherished. Babies are miracles in themselves, autistic or not.

There is only a 20-25% chance of conception in any given cycle for a woman even if there is 'perfect' timing, those chances are just proof that life isn't something that is easy to happen.

And yes I'm against abortion in "most" cases unless it's medical termination for risk of baby or mother. And meaning risk to baby is meaning that the baby will have no chance for compatibility with life, not ones that will have any form of 'disability' if you want to call it that, that are able to have some form of life even with the challenges.

I don't believe in its use as a form of birth control. If the person can't be responsible enough to take precautions or abstain if they don't want children, deal with it, that's my opinion on that matter.

As far as anti-defect abortion? Not all those 'defects' are life-threatening that people are aborting, tests can be wrong... higher rates of abortion of Down's Syndrome and Neural Tube defects are starting to be because of a stupid non-diagnostic blood test that they offer the women that has like a 70% chance of a false positive/false negative result. It is all based on the supposed chances (a number) representing the woman's chance of having a child with either Down's or Neural Tube defects. Drs. don't explain the test isn't diagnostic, scare these women with the results without properly explaining them and often scare them into getting an amniocentesis done that carries a slight risk of miscarriage to find out their babies are normal. Not all things are clear results on an ultrasound even with Level 2 ultrasound of the fetal anatomy.  Prenatal testing can't tell you the severity of any condition totally till either the condition progresses or such. Even if they get a prenatal test for autism, they won't be able to pin a level of 'severity' to it... so parents will get scared thinking the worst. Yet still the drs. won't explain it properly to the patients... which is one of the things that angers me greatly. Go after the drs. in these cases, some inform patients well but others need a better education in handling results for patients.

My own family dr. wanted me to have that Triple Screen/AFP test (not diagnostic) when I was pregnant with Brendon due to the fact that I had polyhydramnios (excessive amniotic fluid) often see in cases with Down Syndrome, I had it with both pregnancies. I never got the test done, why use a test that isn't diagnostic anyways? What is the point? Wish the medical profession would get a clue anyways. Nothing would have stopped me from carrying my son, I would have handled things when he was born and helped him no matter what the situation was.

You never know how much those 'complex cells' mean to a person till you're a parent expecting a baby. You won't know that feeling when it's a being growing inside you.  I have heard from women that had abortions and the trauma they experienced because of it, doesn't sound wonderful to me, nor does the fact that when some finally wanted to have kids, because of the abortion causing issues they had a hard time.

Eugenics of any human being is not right, no matter their situation, challenges (hate the word handicap and disability) and health issues.

Guess that's where I differ on things perhaps. Others may make it hard to go on but we control our lives, not anyone else. Maybe too much credit has been given over because that is the way society seems to lean. I don't know, I just know that I do what I need to each day to get by, love and hopefully help my sons find a better 'state of being' in their lives than the one I grew up with. Yes it's optimistic but it's all I have, if I didn't have that, I wouldn't care to exist.

We have to make a stand on this and just say NO! to "anti-defect pre-natal screening" for AS.

We must stop the Extinction Programme before it's unpacked and loads into the NT social operating system.

Education about WHY we are absolutely opposed to the pre-emptive genocide of our own kind can come later.  

Before its too late.

Stella

Since you're confusing abortion of an early-term foetus with killing an actual human,

Are you saying that you aren't Human until you leave the womb?

It would have been one less person to make a difference don't you think if she had aborted you? One less person for a mother to love. One less person to see things are wrong in this world and help to do something about it. It would have been one less person for your mother to love and even if you wouldn't have known about it, she would still have missed the baby she did abort. I had a miscarriage between my sons and I still miss that baby even though it was early in the pregnancy. It was a loss of part of me in a way. Before I was a parent, I wouldn't have realized how much anyone in this world could have mattered more to me than myself till I had them. If I had lost my oldest son who is HFA at 4 days of age in the NICU because of breathing problems, I honestly wouldn't have ever had another child and the later to read in an ultrasound report that it looked like I had lost a second child, a 'twin' of my youngest son who is NT who I cherish just as much as my oldest son who took over 3.5 yrs of problems trying to get him here. I may have a hard time expressing my feelings or even feeling empathy or sympathy that much towards others but parenting a child has showed me a means to be able to show others even if not always clear.  I learned that day how precious something is to me besides my life. I guess being a parent has taught me many lessons, that each life is valuable in their own unique ways even if I don't always recognize it as such. So yes any loss even if that lost person wasn't around would still have mattered or affected someone whether that they knew how much it'd mean later or not.

It'd have been a shame because that would have been one less of our voices to show others that they are wrong, they need to learn more and accept differences.

and only done if there was no other choice.

Exactly

me neither.  it is an abolutely vile position to be in.  no one who hasn't had experience of that position, whether on a personal level, or with someone close to them, really understands what it's like.

Exactly verivert. Nobody except those who have been there should judge others for their decisions. Some people honestly can not handle an autistic child. Would you say them having one and not being able to care for it is better than the alternative?

I think in this case, 2 things need to be considered: 1) If you don't want to have a child period, find a way to prevent it before a radical method like abortion is needed, if you are responsible enough to have sex, that lends to responsibility for the consequences, ie. baby, STDs, AIDs, etc.  and 2) If a person does get pregnant even after preventing, there is always the option of adoption out there, there are many families that long for a child and can't conceive naturally or by fertility methods that would give for a child. If you can't handle the responsibility you accept by having sex, adoption is a possibility that gives another family a child and your child a home with a loving family (if you are given a chance in helping select the parents that will adopt the baby and such).

That child has every right to be born even if that baby will end up with another family. But the main point is if you don't want a baby, do your best to avoid it with precautions that are less radical than waiting till the baby is 8-12 wks into the pregnancy or such and then deciding, ok, this isn't right for me, I'll get an abortion because I can't handle it. Everyone is within means to be able to use some form of birth control unfortunately not enough care to even realize things they were talked to by parents and teachers.  And yes in this case I blame the parents much more for their teens' miseducation as far as birth control and such than I blame the schools, it's not their responsibility, fine to give the information from a school but parents need to back it up at home.

As far as aborting a boy because the boy may be autistic, that is injustice itself. It's not fair, there are also religions that would abort girls as they are considered inferior, neither case is just and fair and honestly should not be allowed, but unfortunately there are cases where drs. allow it apparently and should be reprimanded for doing so and parents be educated better about their decisions.

Amy, what really does disturb me is there are people out there that don't consider using anything for birth control other than an abortion or morning after pills, especially young women in their teens and early 20's that don't have the common sense if you want to call it to prevent before instead of after the fact.

Unfortunately there is no such thing as being in a 'good' financial position when having children unless you make a substantial amount of money, even for our family of four, we're finding it hard at times on a single income of over $30,000 CAN. Unfortunately if you wait till you're financially stable to have a child, you're likely going to run into fertility issues which can start happening in late 20's-early 30's for some women. It's a double-edged sword, the people that want to have the kids and try for years and with lots of money for fertility help end up having a hard time while there are teens and drug users out there that get pregnant with no desire to be. It is definitely not a fair outcome anyway you look at it honestly. Unless a person never learns about sex and reproduction in school or at home, most people know that sex and no birth control can equal having a child and know what to do to avoid that. It's carelessness that gets people into situations like that instead of facing responsibilities. That could prevent loss of income and all if the person isn't ready.

I honestly don't feel bad for people in those situations as much, having sex requires a certain level of maturity and responsibility to handle any consequences from it. If you don't feel ready, don't do it. It's harsh but that's a fact.