Aspies For Freedom

Full Version: AS is lumped among "behavioural difficulties"
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Ron Clooney, teachers' union representative for Southampton, has said that in a secondary-school class of  28, "If one child's on sedatives, another is suffering [sic] from Asperger's syndrome and another child has got Tourette syndrome, there could be swearing and disruption, and 80% of the teacher's time could be absorbed by those three children to the detriment of the other 25 children within that classroom."

Read the full article at:
Happier in a special school
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3736190.stm
Maybe that's because the teacher is incompetent at keeping control of things? Because she's NT perhaps?







Please excuse the NT comment, it's early in the morning.
When I was in school I was extremely quiet and withdrawn, they had no trouble with me disrupting the class, it was usually a few NT kids who loved to argue with the teacher, show off, make stupid jokes etc, and they disrupted my education....
Also from what Ron said, if a kid was on sedatives he would be sedated, so how would he be disrupting the class exactly?
Sounds more like "blame the kids" while angling for a pay rise.

Sjöjungfru Wrote:
Ron Clooney, teachers' union representative for Southampton, has said that in a secondary-school class of  28, "If one child's on sedatives, another is suffering [sic] from Asperger's syndrome and another child has got Tourette syndrome, there could be swearing and disruption, and 80% of the teacher's time could be absorbed by those three children to the detriment of the other 25 children within that classroom."


When I was in class (regular) with a bunch of NT's, the kids pulled exactly the same *** - they all kept deliberately misbehaving, forcing the teachers to spend the majority of their time dealing with discipline issues instead of actually teaching.

Quote:
they had no trouble with me disrupting the class, it was usually a few NT kids who loved to argue with the teacher, show off, make stupid jokes etc, and they disrupted my education....

Same here.

Note that according to Ron Clooney (no relation to George judging by his picture!) Aspies suffer while children with Tourette's (Touries?!) merely have their condition.
I've found myself wondering about these "rages" so often attributed to AS, but I'm sure I never had them, and if I had, then my parents would soon have put a stop to them. I can see how misfit kids could be more prone to "lose it" and with this "modern parenting" garbage about letting children express themselves, may actually be encouraged in that direction.

The boy in the article for instance, seemed intelligent enough, and could understand the consequences it seems, so why was he allowed to throw chairs and such? It's no use blaming the teachers in such instances as they've been systematically stripped of any means to control such children. We can't draw conclusions from a short article, but how many of these events are really due to AS (or something related to it) and how many due to "spoiled brat syndrome"? In many cases, it would be worthwhile, I'm sure, to apply a swift kick up the arse (starting with idiots who want to ban spanking and promote the use of "reason", and then the parents who so eagerly swallow this garbage thus avoiding their responsibility to apply appropriate discipline).

gwynfryn Wrote:
In many cases, it would be worthwhile, I'm sure, to apply a swift kick up the arse (starting with idiots who want to ban spanking and promote the use of "reason", and then the parents who so eagerly swallow this garbage thus avoiding their responsibility to apply appropriate discipline).


What's so "appropriate" about using violence to sort out problems or conflict?

The quote below is taken from http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pag.../faqs.html :

End All Corporate Punishment of Children Wrote:
"Corporal punishment is a necessary part of upbringing. Children learn from a smacking or beating to respect their elders, to distinguish right from wrong, to obey rules and work hard. Without corporal punishment children will be spoilt and undisciplined."
Children need discipline, and particularly need to learn self-discipline. But corporal punishment is a very ineffective form of discipline. Research has consistently shown that it rarely motivates children to act differently, because it does not bring an understanding of what they ought to be doing nor does it offer any kind of reward for being good. The fact that parents, teachers and others often have to repeat corporal punishment for the same misbehaviour by the same child testifies to its ineffectiveness. Smacking, spanking and beating are a poor substitute for more positive forms of discipline which, far from spoiling children, ensure that they learn to think about others and about the consequences of their actions. In the countries where corporal punishment is banned there is no evidence to show that disruption of schools or homes by unruly children has increased: the sky does not fall if children cannot be hit.

alan8359 Wrote:
When I was a kid the sort of "antisocial" behaviour that we are subjected to now would have been dealt with by a smack 'round the lughole.


And if we'd complained to our parents, we'd have had another! Even then, there were troublemakers and incorrigibles, but nothing like the level of hooliganism which exists in the UK today (it's nothing near as bad in France, and, coincidentally{?} it's still common to see parents here give a swift spank when it's called for).

The anti crowd keep treating such in isolation but in practice, as part of a consistent system of restraint (from the earliest possible age; if you never apply any discipline until the kid can speak and be "reasoned with" as the "modern parenting" crowd preach, then it's already too late; you've effectively taught the little shits to do as they please, at any time, and that's the attitude they'll take through to adulthood) and explanation, an occasional spank is still approriate. Without the rest it's obviously a waste of time, as is screaming in a kids lug hole when they know you'll never do more than that!

The only reason Corporal Punishment existed back in the old days of school was because of the following Bible verse:


Quote:
"Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." King Solomon, The Bible, Proverbs 23:14



I believe these were the times that you also had to pray in school as well?





A great essay I like to show people when they go for corporal punishment(it's by Professor Bob, btw. And a little warning about his site: there is some yiff in the art section):

Quote:
Spare the rod, spoil the child? If you asked a Christian fanatic this, or someone who grew up with corporal punishment in their life, they would say yes. To those of us who think this is horrible, and a form of mind control to make children fear discipline and follow all orders, we say a stern no.

Throughout time, the relationship between a parent and their offspring was crucial for the child's growth and well being. Love and the knowledge of right from wrong was what was required of their little ones, though all parents attempt to attain this goal and some extra ones in different ways. Spanking is a word everyone has heard, and some have experienced.

I believe a child should be raised with hugs, love, and cuddles, not a rod. There are so many out there that would hit their child without looking to alternatives, or even try to reason on talk with their own child. They're not impassable walls, you can speak with them and get a reply. I myself have been raised under caring hands, though I will admit I recieved a good few swats when I was quite little. It's really a part of your early childhood, but it should be a very small and very rare part.

The thought of having children of my own makes me ever so happy. I yearn to have kids of my own, from the bottom of my heart. The last thing I would ever want to do to them is cause them pain, as I'd rather play with them and love them. Although, I have accepted the fact that I have a 'role' to play. A duty of a sort, to make sure my kids are kind to everyone and don't cause all hell. I personally reserve spanking as an absolute last resort, and done under specific circumstances, and for the most wrong of doings. As their father, I would want to be as loving as one could be, almost like a mother. I want nothing more then to have happy and intelligent children to call my own, while I watch and help them grow up. It's just an acceptance, to know that though you love dearly, that you also have to ground them and do those other things too.

The art of spanking has been under severe debate the past long while, being supported by many things and debunked by many others. All throughout time, children were punished by the inflicting of pain, whether it was by an object or a human hand. The switching was one of the first spankings ever invented, whipping their kids to be obidient way back into the BC's. Further through time, corporal punishment grew and new methods of punishing kids and even adults had come into play. Public whippings or floggings of women and even children in some areas of the world, and all kids were expected to be raised in the strictest of homes. Punishments even grew into cruel and inhumane, usualy dealing with religion and chastisment. During the victorian era, enemas were used as horrid punishment tools, and when the victim had all near half dozen administered, they were strapped onto a 'riding horse'. A male would be caned, and a female would recieve the strap. Masturbation was the worst crimes, and was delt with stinging discipline, and more often then not, applied to the genitals, male or female. After this time, discipline didn't exactly de-evolve, but instead just changed. Punishments upon the back, legs, and hands were still used, and publicly too. Students bent over a desk infront of the class and punished bare below the waist while others watched mockingly. Within our current times, spanking is a parental responcibility, and has finally been taken away from schools and other institutions, though some parents still choose to use such harsh tactics used in the past. They believe a strict upbringing is the only way to keep your child always repsectful and unrebellious. Isn't this a form of mind control however?

Many children have a rod, or a belt used on them, basicly because thats how the parent was raised or because the bible says a child needs to be punished with the rod's sting to save them. Kids don't need such strict live anymore, not in this day and age. A good parent with loving hands can do just as well, and actually better then a good parent with hands used for punishment. Yet, some still think that corporal punishment is the best way to raise a child, and I strongly disagree. I read a story on the net once, about a real account by the author. She was in her room, listening to an audiotape with a headset, and her mother came in going off about how she had been calling her. The girl appologized and explained she had been listening to music and could not hear, but her mother told her she would be spanked after dinner. So, while the family was still at the table, the mother took her into the kitchen nearby, bared her below the waist, and bent her over the counter and spanked her with a spoon. She really didn't do anything wrong, and her mother left welts upon her thighs, spanking her for about ten minutes (Spanking the thigh leaves a very nasty reminder when a child sits down). This woman actually said she appreciated her mother's discipline, and she turned out great. I disagree to that. If you write about an encounter you had and admit to 'liking' spankings, isn't there something wrong somewhere?

I will admit, spanking does have a small place in being a parent, but it is very delicate. It is a last resort if he or she keeps doing something very bad, or does something incredibly outrageous. Other things need to be tried first, and that is most importantly speaking with the child. They do listen, they have ears. Spanking is not a violent act of hitting, but a reminder about consequenses. Never 'hit' your child, or punish out of anger. If you can't control your temper, don't even attempt to spank him or her. Hitting isn't the term I will be using, for that is not the goal or the point. This is something for a young age, when they might be going astray, and nothing else has worked. You retire the child to the privacy of their own room, and first, talk with them. If the child doesn't understand why he or she is about to have happen what is about to occur, you will cause more harm then good. With words said, you place the child over your lap and do your thing, which neither of you want to do. If he or she tries to fight or struggle when to try to begin, they don't fully accept it, so you'd sit them up on your lap and cuddle them close and convey the reasons for this, and that they earned it. If you spank just to give a child their "just desserts", you have proven no point and have made no progress, other then the fact you just hurt your child. You spank once they don't wish to struggle, and accept every swat as the punishment for what they did. Never swat for force, but just a slapping sting, as violence is out of the question. You can't restrain or hold down the child by any means, and that would also brake the purpose of them coming to terms that they have committed a 'spankable' act. Once you're done, you can leave him or her over your lap if they're young and comfort them, or leave for a bit if they're older, so that they have time to privately cry and compose themselves. A brief time before and after allows them to contemplate what they did, and see for themselves that it was wrong. When you take them to their room is the before time, and the after the spanking is the after time. Don't make them wait in their room for you, as that is cruel, imposing fear and anxiety like that, and you're making it a harsh ordeal to the child instead of a 'loving punishment'. Afterwards, you tell the child how much you love them and your reasons for doing that, giving them a hug and showing how much you care. After an older one has composed his or her self, you can come back and do this, or if you've done a perfect job, the child will come to you. The point of this is to get the idea across that what they did was wrong and merits such a punishment, but you love them all the same. Since they accepted the punishment and recieved forgiveness, they have grown a bit and are highly unlikely to do that horrible act again. Not because of being punished, but because they have actually realized it was wrong.

As for the area of implements, never ever strike your child with anything other then the palm of your hand, as this is cruel and hurtful. How anyone could stomach lashing their own child is far beyond me. If you insist on using something, use a simple device like a ruler. It's far less harsher then a paddle, and doesn't cause bruising or painful marks like a switch. Flat and thin so it stings like hell, but also humane, though using anything at all is sort of mean. Thanks to extensive research in the field of corporal punishment, I have developed my system of handling it that is far more loving, and the punishment isn't actually the point. Making the child sorry for doing it is one thing, but actually showing the child his or her's wrong doing and ACTUALLY making he or she sorry for doing it, that they would appologize for what they did and understand it was wrong.

All children make mistakes, but I will also admit some children are far worse then others. Just this morning, while I was researching this subject and getting angry at all the Christians that whip their kids with switches and tell them god wants them to, I heard the sound of a small child being mauled outside. I got up from my desk and looked out the window to find the two neighbor children fighting, and the boy stomping away. He had beat the crap out of his little seven year old sister to the point of bawling, and left her in the wet and muddy grass. Even though I hate them both, it pained me to see a brother do that to his sister when he was supposed to protect her. Something horrible like that merits a spanking, for I think if he believes he can cause her hurt and make her cry, someone can make him cry too. It's only fair afterall. Many disagree that such 'violence' cannot be used to tell a child not to hit, but I don't agree with that. It's completely different, and with the method I invented, it's not violent anyway.

There are so many alternatives to discipline, swatting your child these days should be a last resort. I believe strongly that a child can be raised perfectly with love, and I hope I never have to lay my hand upon them, as I'd much rather play with them and help them grow. THAT is my job, not being a disciplinarian. I don't exactly condone any corporal punishment, but I leave my system open if I ever have to use it. If I do my job right, I shouldn't have to. For all the parents out there, remember this, your love and words can have as much of an effect as a stinging rod. Correcting your child is one thing, but lashing and spanking them is another. Just show them that you care, and that punishments aren't just there for their pain or your anger venting.

As a future father, I say love, and not swats...and hopefully other children across the world will have the wonderful parenting and painless lives as my own will.

Badger, that is a very nice essay. Just remember that it was written by someone who doesn't have any children of his own. It's all a nice theory. The part of spanking a child only when he is happy and willing to receive the spanking is pure fiction, as you would never find a child who would actually hold still without being held down by at least some force.

However, I agree that 'time out', talking to the kid etc. should always be how you try to deal with misbehaviour, and that spanking has to be a last resort. But sometimes a slap on the hand or a spank on the bum (just one) is necessary, if the child keeps endangering his/her life, but can't seem to understand why she shouldn't do something. Then the fear of being spanked will have to stop the kid until she can understand.

A good example is my second daughter. When she was two she had no sense of danger whatsoever, and explaining the danger had no effect. She would run into the road for instance when cars were coming. I explained to her that a car could come and run her over and she would be very hurt. That worked fine with the other four kids, they understood that. But with Karen it had no effect. So, the next three times she did it, I gave her a swift spank on the behind and said 'No, you can't go on the road, you have to stay on the sidewalk'. After the third time, she stopped doing it. It wasn't a punishment, but simply a deterrent in this case.

With two of my children, just talking to them and helping them understand why something was wrong was all they ever needed (sending them to their room had no effect whatsoever, they'd just read and didn't care). With my son, sending him to his room and separating him from others was what worked, with Karen, first spanking, and later taking away privileges was what she needed, and the last kid, the only thing that ever had any effect was spanking. She simply didn't care (by the way, she is just like my husband, and very obnoxious and totally agrees with him that I could be 'normal' if I tried harder).

Fortunately, only the youngest (who will be 13 next month) still lives at home, and she is one of the two who only needs talking to. Even though my husband constantly wants to take away her allowance for minor things, or wanting to ground her. I disagree with grounding, to deprive a child of fresh air and exercise for any length of time will only make her frustrated, mopy and a real pain in the butt. I would punish myself more than her!

Anyway, I agree that spanking is a last resort, but sometimes necessary. But I am always suspicious of anybody who doesn't have any kids of their own, wanting to tell people how they should raise their kids. Because a lot of these theories don't work in practice.

I also think that public humiliation by hitting, spanking or such in school was an atrocity. But these days the poor teachers aren't even allowed to give a child time out in the corner any more, for fear of a lawsuit. So, in many classrooms there is utter chaos, because the teacher has no idea what to do to control the kids.

Of course, for the most part it's total bunk that an AS kid and one with Tourettes will take all the teacher's time and cause chaos. I have both (as well as other things) and was never a problem. They are just trying to put blame for the bad system on somebody, and who is a good scapegoat? Of course, the handicapped and the ones who are unable to defend themselves (I never knew how to defend myself).

Uschi
You have a good point, Uschi, about Prof. Bob not having kids. Yes, it may impair his judgement when it comes to raising them, but it does seem that he accepts the fact that spanking does help, as shown in his Kayla story mini-series(btw, To Hell and Memory Lane aren't quite important when it comes to the story line, so no need to read those. But To Hell was well written, IMO). While he may not approve of spanking, he does accept it.





And that's how I feel it as well. I mean, the guy that first started the "corporal punishment = psychological disorders" thing admitted that he was wrong when he had kids. And, if you've ever read the book The Outsiders, by S.E. Hinton, you'll see that parents do need to be strict sometimes to prevent spoilt brats for children.

kamikazebadger Wrote:
And a little warning about his site: there is some yiff in the art section


What's "yiff"?

I don't know what yiff is either...

Anyway, in reply to the first post, I think he was wrong to only point out people who weren't considered normal (how pc am I?). Any charv will disrupt a class (as in, shoving a table in front of a door when the teacher leaves te classroom) and the teachers don't seem to be able to control them.

However, there was a theory that classes should be setted according to attitude and not grades- so the teachers could help those who need help and let the rest of us get on by ourselves. I agree with this- I might actually enjoy school and achieve my A*s.
Acronym for "Young Incredibly ****able Furry", also used to describe anthropomorphic erotica.



And also, I support the dicipline of children. Nothing too harsh like beating them with a belt every night, but spanking and things, I do support.



Then again, I'm a sadistic kind of guy Big Grin.
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