Aspies For Freedom

This is a really terrible and sad tragic story.  I feel so sorry for Freund that he didn't get the help/friendship that he was so desperately looking for.  And, I feel sorry for the two people that he killed -- and both of the families involved.

Still, it really bugs me when in stories like this the authorities and other people say things like "the motive may never be known" or "we don't know why he did it."  No, perhaps we can never be 100% sure what motivated him to kill these people, but come on!  The young woman went to the same high school as Freund did -- they were neighbors -- is it so hard to figure out?  He probably liked her.  And, she probably didn't give him the time of day....  Not that that justifies her death -- far from it.  But, since he was obviously depressed and extremely lonely and desperate -- is it really that hard to imagine his motivation?

It's like after the Columbine shootings -- no one could imagine why those boys would do such a thing.  (!)  To this day, most official stories deny the motivation of revenge.

:cry:

I don't think anyone at wrongplanet should be blamed for what has happened. His posts lacked coherence and the things he said were quite outrageous - definitely qualities of a troll. Like those at wrongplanet, I would have thought he was a troll, and although I wouldn't have dismissed his comments, I probably would have ignored him.

This whole thing is very unfortunate but nothing could have been done. Had the authorities been notified, they would have probably not given it much thought either.

So do we think the suicide murderer really an aspie? Murder, emotional blackmail and manipulative, attention-seeking behaviour aren't exactly typical autistic behaviours. Was the guy genuinely manipulative or just irrational and incoherent (suggestive of depressive psychosis)?

Perhaps AFF could set up a help forum for anyone who feels they are on the edge, or about to do something drastic. Anyone who posted there could have our support, and we could refer them to other places as well. It would have to be a rule that all members who posted on that forum took other member's comments seriously and refrained from making inappropriate comments that might be alright on the other forums eg. Stop trolling the board, etc.

Sadly, I think this is exactly what happened.

Someone mentioned elsewhere that he had been given Geodon (which he, apparently, didn't like and wanted to come off).  Here's what I found on another forum about Geodon (Geodon's an antipsychotic which is prescribed to treat the symptoms of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder) >>

"I have a son on Geodone, I know this one is fairly new, but I am woundering if anyone is having problems with irritability, violent behavior and inability to think rashly...."

"I have been on Geodon 80mg twice a day for 9 days now. I am having violent behaviors,and I know it sounds weird but when I am dreaming, I can not tell if my dream was something I did or if it was a dream. It is really runing my life. Please I want to know if this is something from this medication or what I need to do."

"I have been taking Geodon for the last month and just stopped. This last month I have experienced three Rage Episodes. During the episodes I wanted to kill or maim loved ones and family members. I could actually visualize the distruction. I was extreemely frightened. Turning the Rage outward put my family in jeopardy and turning the Rage inward put my life at risk. It took all my self-control to prevent the violence. I was unaware that I was capable of experiencing such intense violent emotions."

http://www.drugs.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=683

:cry:

Yes!  Thank you.

Did you see my post above about the fact that he was on Geodon and that some people become violent when taking it?

I actually emailed the L.A. Times reporters about it.  One of them replied to me and said they were aware of it but haven't had time yet to investigate the drug and its side-effects.  I hope they do.

I've also just emailed the Orange County Sheriff's Dept about it.  Let's see what happens.

It's really bugging me that the press spin on this is 'solitary, crazy person with Asperger's goes on inexplicable rampage....'   :mad:

They're gonna make ME go on a rampage!   :wink:  [Joke, joke!!]   :razz:

Lonermutant >> preschool children?!  That's kinda funny.   :razz:

Well, I found these quotes on a forum discussing various medications.  Sounds scary (for some people anyway - other people are pleased with the medicine) >>

"I have a son on Geodone, I know this one is fairly new, but I am woundering if anyone is having problems with irritability, violent behavior and inability to think rashly...."

"I have been on Geodon 80mg twice a day for 9 days now. I am having violent behaviors,and I know it sounds weird but when I am dreaming, I can not tell if my dream was something I did or if it was a dream. It is really runing my life. Please I want to know if this is something from this medication or what I need to do."

"I have been taking Geodon for the last month and just stopped. This last month I have experienced three Rage Episodes. During the episodes I wanted to kill or maim loved ones and family members. I could actually visualize the distruction. I was extreemely frightened. Turning the Rage outward put my family in jeopardy and turning the Rage inward put my life at risk. It took all my self-control to prevent the violence. I was unaware that I was capable of experiencing such intense violent emotions."

http://www.drugs.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=683

Ha det!  :wink:

Terrific.   :?   [Sarcastic comment.]

Just emailed the doc in charge of that clinical trial with all the info I have on Geodon and that William may have been taking it.

Let's see what he has to say -- if anything.

I will do!

Yeah -- I'm sure you're right -- unfortunately.  I know it's a sort-of David and Goliath battle to try to argue with pharmaceutical companies (or any major company for that matter) -- but, if some people out there are going to experience really adverse, dangerous side-effects to this medication, I think it should be looked into.

I have no idea if Geodon played any role in William's case -- I just think the question should at least be asked, you know?  Not ignored.

The one small ray of hope I thought of when I contacted the L.A. Times reporters is that, if you remember, last year there was a lot of talk in the press about SSRIs and teen suicide.  I thought that, perhaps, that was fresh enough in everybody's mind to make people concerned about this medication, too.  We'll see.

Nov 6, 2005
Dana Parsons
Killer Couldn't Survive the Taunts

From what's been reported so far, it seems clear that William Freund took some secrets to his grave. Knowing exactly why the 19-year-old killed two neighbors and then himself with shotgun blasts eight days ago requires more information than we may be able to get.

But among various dark threads running through Freund's last several years, one is especially familiar and painfully time-worn. As reported more thoroughly on the front of this section today, Freund was the subject of mocking and derisive cruelty from his peers as far back as middle school.

They would punch his backpack. They laughed when he sneezed in class. They made him the butt of jokes. They poked fun at his clothes.

One of his sympathetic acquaintances told our reporter that Freund had been an outcast as long as she could remember.

You don't need to be a therapist to imagine the cumulative effect that could have on a young person. All you need to be is someone who's worked your way through the social grinder that junior high and high school can be and remember what being a social pariah can mean and what it's like to take the taunts home with you night after night.

Obviously, most students who are bullied or mocked don't react violently. Most survive it, at least outwardly. Freund, according to his acquaintance, "would just take it, day after day."

That may be the saddest epitaph of all.

All this is sad-but-true commentary to Cyndie Borcoman of Newport Beach, who led a movement a few years ago to get the Newport-Mesa Unified School District to enact an anti-bullying policy. It stemmed from her son telling her that a high school friend had been choked to near-death by another student, only to have school officials blame the injury on a seizure.

"Adults say that bullying is a rite of passage," Borcoman said last week, "and that you have to be resilient in school. Unfortunately, a lot of kids get marked in junior high and once they're marked, they never get unmarked."

Newport-Mesa and other districts, locally and around the country, developed more formal and tougher anti-bullying policies. But their success depends on how authorities define bullying and how consistent they are in enforcing it.

Freund's own words make it clear he never got past it. His postings on websites are rife with references to never fitting in.

"Kids are not shown how to treat each other," Borcoman says, "or when [others] are in pain, how to help them. Instead, they learn on TV how to put them down."

Borcoman has been both a teacher and counselor at alternative schools that take in troubled students. It's not unusual that new arrivals were shunned at their previous schools.

"Kids take it as much as they can," she says of bullied victims. "Some can't take it very much; they keep it in as much as they can."

Most of the time, the victim suffers in silence. Much rarer, of course, are cases in which teens reach the breaking point and explode in pent-up violence.

Borcoman recommends starting anti-bully programs as early as 4th and 5th grades — for boys and girls. The instruction should focus on discouraging youngsters from being bullies as well as letting potential victims know they can find safe port with school officials, she says.

Talk of policies and procedures sounds awfully hollow when juxtaposed with the horrible end that Freund chose for himself and his two victims.

But you can't help but wonder when the demons first entered him. Was the fatal outburst that came at 19 the inevitable product of taunts that first surfaced years earlier?

Neither Borcoman nor I can say that for sure.

But hallway thumpings? Classroom jibes?

Rites of passage to make you tougher?

Somehow, I doubt William Freund saw it quite like that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Parsons' column appears Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays. He can be reached at (714) 966-7821 or at dana .parsons@latimes.com. An archive of his recent columns is at http://www.latimes.com/parsons.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orange...&cset=true

You know -- I have to say once again that people who say things like "we just don't know what the motive could have been" in a case like William's are either in total denial or out-and-out lying.   :roll:

Recall what happened:

He [William] drove his car around the corner to Somerset Drive and entered the Smith home. Inside, Freund killed Christina Smith and her father, Vernon Smith, 45. Christina's 20-year-old brother escaped unhurt through the back door after hearing gunfire, authorities said. Their mother was at work.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-...-headlines

20-year-old brother, huh?  If I recall correctly, William was 19.  So William and the brother could've been in the same year in high school (I read somewhere that Christina Smith and William went to the same high school, so it's likely that her brother did, too.)

Now -- I'm not advocating any sort of revenge -- well, at least not shooting and/or killing other people.  But, why is it so hard for people to envision that William went over to the Smith house for revenge?  Maybe the brother had bullied William in school -- maybe for his whole life!  

This article said he [the brother] escaped out the back door when he heard gunfire.  Maybe he did -- maybe he got lucky.  But, if he did bully William (and I'm not saying he did -- I have no proof of this) -- he might now be feeling a bit responsible for his sister and father's death.  I'm not saying it's right -- and I do feel sorry for this brother even if he was a bully.  But, wow -- what a "place" to be in.   :neutral:

Just to give everyone an update -- I (of course) never heard back from this doc who is in charge of the clinical trial on the use of Geodon for autists.   :roll:

I just emailed him again given the fact that ANOTHER teenage, Aspie guy who was taking Geodon had a rage episode -- inolving a gun -- fortunately, this time, no one was injured or killed.  >>

In a problem facing many parents of mentally ill children, medications are meted out on a trial-and-error basis. Ben had been taking Geodon — as William Freund apparently had — for about two months. Since the incident, Speer says, she and his psychiatrist discontinued Geodon and put Ben back on his previous medication, with increased dosage. "He's his old self," Speer says.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orange...ons-orange

Meanwhile, the clinical trial on the effectiveness of ziprasidone (Geodon) for children (aged 12-18!) with autism is happening right now (!) >>

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NC...9?order=16

The email address of the doc running the clinical trial can be found here -- Dr. Richard P. Malone -- if anyone else wants to put some pressure on. >>

http://www.drexel.edu/search/phonebook/default.asp