I guess they are two sides of the coin. perhaps depending on the individuals personality or other circumstances, AS can either cause a person to be a very good or very bad parent. or one could be AS and a bad parent and their pad parenting has little or nothing to do with their AS.
I think what this site needs to do, which i doublt they will ever do, is put up a huge disclaimer to caution that while people coming here have had extreme difficultys with parents because of their AS, this hardly means that AS affects everyone's parenting skills negatively and the majority of AS people are certianly nothing less thn wonderful parents.
One of the stories i read (
http://aspar.klattu.com.au/anthony.htm), did in fact state that while he had much trouble with his suspected AS mum, he was also abused by an older brother whom he clearly states do not have AS.
okay now this is my dilemna.
this site. like ASPartners, is obviously *very* unfair to AS people, parents in particular of course. I think AS people, having probably had a rough deal in their earlier years, will probably be more sympathetic and understanding when their kid is having trouble, whether in school or any sort of setting.
but then, I dunno, I mean I do know that these people also do need a place to come to and swap stories and realise perhaps why their mum acted the way she did and that it wasn't that the kid was a bad kid. I mean obviously I do want to protect the name of AS people in general, although i myself dont see myself ever becoming a parent, if i ever did i wouldn't ever want the world at large to write me off as incapable of loving and caring for a child, naturally!!! but how do we settle on a compromise? for all those kids who were in fact emotionally abused or neglected by an AS parent... if we protest and say they are being discrimatory, will we be sending back the message to them once again that "Hey... this is the wrong thing to do. How dare you say such a thing etc etc..." bringing them back to square one where they believe that they shoudn't say anything and perhaps it was their fault somehow that there parents treated them the way they did. The fact remains that they were neglected or abused emotionally and they should have a voice too.
A parallel example i can think of was one that i read about 2 yrs ago, where this kid was raped for hours on end till he was dead by 2 gay men. this case recieved far less attention then the Mathew Shapard case.
Naturally this case has potential for abuse by homophobics because it might imply that gay men are all perverted pedophiles when in truth there are far more hetero than homosexual pedophiles out there, and all sorts of other homophobic hogwash. so the gay community was nervous to mention it. But one guy pointed out that are they so afriad abt what pple think of them that they cannot acknowledge that this boy died in a horrific way?
So yes,, whats the compromise?
Maybe she should *&*&^& get over it.
Reading through parts of her story. She actually blames her mother for her father's death.
Don't judge. you don't know her or her life. that's all i can say.
hell yeah Indeed we do. Not saying we shouldnt mind you. but it's still a complex situation. AS is linked to difficulties in social interaction, so if a parent has AS and is neglectful or just a very difficult parent to live with, it's hard to say that the two are mutualy exclusive. Personally I strongly believe they can be mutually exclusive, as the wonderful parents on the board have demonstrated. But there again, this would contradict the Aspie /Autie self advocacy that AS makes up every facet of one's life, and its not seperable.
1) we could say that perhaps these parents don't have AS. They are just bad parents or have something else. But then that would be like saying that people of AS are incapable of doing anything bad.
2) Or we could say that these paren'ts have AS, but their behavior is not linked to their AS. Unfortunately from what is described this seems that a lot of it is a negative expression of one's AS.
3) Or simply this is normal AS behavior twisted around and greatly exagerated by NT kids. but thats kinda "blaming the victim".
I strongly believe that if we are to turn around and say that it's the kids who were not understanding or the ones who were the problem and they need to understand their parents (well they do, but to mend fences rather than it beign their fault), that's pretty much 3)-- and these pple have been either put down or neglected, attention starved or whatever and finally 'coming out', this is the last thing they want to hear.
At the same time, the strong emphasis on AS = inability to parent, which is bullshit, is the worst part of it.
So should these pple simply join to a Children of emotionally abusive parents support group instead? I don't know...[/i]
Maybe she should *&*&^& get over it.
Reading through parts of her story. She actually blames her mother for her father's death.
Don't judge. you don't know her or her life. that's all i can say.
We aren't judging her or her life, we're discussing the discriminatory way that she presents this list of behaviors as universal to all aspie parents. The fact that she would blame her mother for her father's death is a sign of her dysfunction. If her site were about gay parents the discrimination would be clearly apparent to most people, but because she picks on aspies who lack minority status the hate is not as clearly apparent to some.
I was specifically referring to the response which told her to "get over it" and... whatever that made her believe that her mum was in part responsible for her fathers death.
As far as the list of behavoirs being universal to aspies thing being discrimitory, i am with you 100%
so wait-- perhaps i am unclear here, my fault. so what the forumers here are against is specifically the AS= all these things on the checklist/"bad parent" bit. Which I am. Not the acknowledgment that AS may have played a part in these peoples negative experiences with their parents. Am i correct so far?
On the other hand NT kids would probably not be better of with AS parents. Maybe we should be segregated and live only amongst ourselves since we cause so much problems for NTs.
hmmm. was that meant ot be sacarsm/a poor reflection on NT kids or just stating it matter of factly?
guys I brought it to her attention that we were pretty pissed over this and quoted my posts here. Her reply is as follows
Hi!
Yes, I've heard all about it.
The irony is that I'm a bit aspie myself! And that I was one of the pioneers of the AS rights movement which gave ppl the language to demad their rights. You may not know that I coined the term "neurodiversity" when I envisaged a politics of neurological liberation, and that has become quite a movement out in cyberspace. I have suffered massive discrimination myself because of my AS traits. And also, the effect of my group is that we now understand and respect our parents struggles. Frinstance I used to revile my mother, and now I feel a great deal of love and protectiveness for her.
Anyhow being an honest ASpie, I just gotta do what I do, which is talk about the dark side of AS in the interests of truth. My aim is not to prevent Aspies from having children, but to get them appropriate services so they can make informed decisions about having children, and if they do have children get whatever assistance they need.
For instance I'm one of those hyperintuitive aspie women, and I am a great mother, emotionally, but I am very disorganised and clumsy in the real world, and I wish I wasnt hounded by CentreLink all the time to get paid work, at which I'm hopeless.
New movements always need a bogey(wo)man to unite around opposing so I guess I'm it.
I also share a name with Peter Singer who has been the Disab Movts bogey, and sometimes urban myth mixes me up with him.
I like your idea of a prominent disclaimer. I might do that when I get a minute. I guess that the implied disclaimer on the front page "These impairments, when present to a significant degree, must obviously have an impact on parenting, which requires a high degree of intuitive responsiveness. " is a bit too subtle.
Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to build bridges between me and my critics in the interests of a better world for aspies and NT's alike.
And you are welcome to forward this message to your groups, if so, let me know what happened
Regards
Judy Singer
okay now this is my dilemna.
this site. like ASPartners, is obviously *very* unfair to AS people, parents in particular of course. I think AS people, having probably had a rough deal in their earlier years, will probably be more sympathetic and understanding when their kid is having trouble, whether in school or any sort of setting.
but then, I dunno, I mean I do know that these people also do need a place to come to and swap stories and realise perhaps why their mum acted the way she did and that it wasn't that the kid was a bad kid. I mean obviously I do want to protect the name of AS people in general, although i myself dont see myself ever becoming a parent, if i ever did i wouldn't ever want the world at large to write me off as incapable of loving and caring for a child, naturally!!! but how do we settle on a compromise? for all those kids who were in fact emotionally abused or neglected by an AS parent... if we protest and say they are being discrimatory, will we be sending back the message to them once again that "Hey... this is the wrong thing to do. How dare you say such a thing etc etc..." bringing them back to square one where they believe that they shoudn't say anything and perhaps it was their fault somehow that there parents treated them the way they did. The fact remains that they were neglected or abused emotionally and they should have a voice too.
I think you make very good points. It would be wrong to suggest these people are lying or making a fuss, as they quite possible were abused as children. It's understandable that they want to join a support group, and also try to prevent other children from being abused.
Obviously the kind of people who go to this help group will have had bad experiences of autistic people. The site portrays a very negative view of autism, and seems to assume most AS people would be bad parents. If you look deeper into the site, it does say "We do not believe that every person who has been labelled AS is necessarily a bad parent." However, I think this message should be more prominently displayed, because you could easily miss it.
Personally, from what I know about autistic people, I think it depends entirely on the person. Many would be very understanding parents, who know what it is like to be bullied at school and who will help their children grow up to be non-judgemental and open-minded. On the other hand, if they can't understand the needs of a five-year-old, or hate the loud noises that children make, then it would be a bad idea to have a child. But this is not just something for AS parents to consider - if an NT person cares more about their career than their children, wants to go out to parties every night or doesn't like the mess children would make in their posh house, they probably shouldn't have a baby either. It's a serious decision for all people, NT or AS.
I wonder whether knowing about their own aspergers/ autism would help Aspies be better parents. If they know what problems it might cause, they might be able to prepare better, or even ask other people to help, to make sure their NT kids get the support they need. It seemed from reading the stories that part of the problem was that no-one understood why the parents acted so "strangely", or even believed some of the problems the children faced. On the other hand, a diagnoses could be a problem if it made social services try to interfere too much.
What do you think?
Queenie
By Aguna ("Jokes" forum)
"So many Aspie pedestrians. So little time."
:evil:
Try this one:
"NT's are like Slinkies. They're really good for nothing, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."
That first quote is NOT my idea of funny... and NT's say Aspie's have no sense of humour.
Reading the forums, ugh. I can understand many women may not get the support they need living with an Aspie and I can respect that, but some of the people there have a serious axe to grind and hold all their problems the responsibility of their AS member. People describing it as "I'm afraid to have kids because they'll probably like HIM"...
...ugh, that just gives me zero faith in humanity, they're judging Aspie males, by NT female's perspective. It's kind of like saying "He's Jewish it's his fault" and stoning them out of town.
Oh right, that's why you break the links here? I had noticed all the links were broken up, thought it may've been a technciality with the way URL's are handled. I'll break them up in future then.
See, that's another NT trait... they have a bad Aspie relationship, and then they go around cracking sick jokes about hurting Aspies. Never get Aspie's being all vengeful like that...
Neuro-Typical Disorder, Co-Morbid Effect #327: Vengeance
My NT mother was the extremely abusive parent with me and my seven siblings, not my Aspie father. And my five NT children are some of the most normal kids (and young grown ups) you'd want to meet. No sign of depression in any of them (or social dysfunction). Their NT father is the one they need protection from!
People constantly tell me how beautiful my kids are, everybody loves them. All through their childhoods I have heard what a great mother I am.
Some Aspies make terrible parents, so what. I doubt that the percentage of awful Aspie parents is any higher than the percentage of awful NT parents. But they don't blame being an NT when a parent is rigid, controlling and plain unreasonable (like my husband), and a bad parent.
This site makes it look like ALL Aspies make bad parents. Are they trying to say that in contrast, all NTs are good parents? :roll:
You are so right on the money! I doubt there is an official correlation between Aspie and bad parent. There are plenty of those everywhere. Drugs and alcohol are the only things I believe that are KNOWN to actually increase bad parenting.
I just went to that site ... as much as I hated it because of the negativity it expects for the future, I was startled that I could see my family (when I was growing up) in the list of traits (my father has never been diagnosed but I suspect has Aspergers). Before you throw tomatos at me for saying that, let ME say that I don't attribute those negative aspects of my family life to my father's Aspergers but, rather, to his frustration with the world around him that resulted from his missunderstood way of thinking. He had a tough life as a child. The tough life my child would be having if he was born 70 years ago. THAT is what I believe caused all those negative behaviors in my father, NOT the way his brain functioned.
I see a totally different future for my son. I can't see a single reason he can't become a top rate parent some day. He KNOWS what makes him different, and he is learning how to deal with it. My dad never got that. All he got was anger and frustration.
So, yes, I see some reality in that very bad site, but the author never learned enough about her parent to understand what really caused that reality.
I am actually considering joing so I can throw that into the discussion, that it isn't the Aspergers that causes bad parenting, but the frustrations a child growing up with Asperger's in the past might have encountered. I'll take all your opinions on that first, though. Good idea or bad idea?
DW my dad has recently come to terms, that he most likely is Aspie or at least had learning disabilities. He's the best dad anyone could ask for. I see much more bad parenting in NT people. Maybe it's a, well there are more NT parents at least that I know..so it's not an equal representation.
I do find that Aspies are more understanding, because they have experienced adversity. So they are less likely to treat their kid like, a thing, or an accessory to drag around and brag to their parent friends about, because they know personally the harm from being pushed against your will to do something.