Aspies For Freedom

How would a non-autistic person know whether or not his/her parents loved them?

Acceptance. It is very painful to feel that your parents would love you (or would love you more) if only you were 'normal'.

Secondly, I do hope you realize that the majority of auties are not savants?

To answer one question:   How do I know that my parents love me?

I can answer for myself only.   It has to do with trust.  I know I can trust my parents even when they have made mistakes.

Are you a horror writer?

So tell me your guess on how you can tell weither your parents love you or not. Ignore nothing, paying as close attension to every detail as you can.  Keeping in mind theres many different forms of communications.  I'm sure its a difficult task to do turning that kind of information into meaningful words, but its a good starting point as any for a discussion on how autistics can tell.

I'd also like to point out not all autistics are body language and/or tone blind and some may have difficulty with recognizing faces.

Talking isn't the only form of communication. Theres writing, panting, drawling, sign language, etc. The rest of your questions sound to me alot like the question "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear the sound of a tree crashing to the ground, does it still make a sound?"

If two people do send emotion/body signals, but each one sends it in a different language much in the same someone may speak french while another person speaks german.  Is the failer of the other person to understand it a sign that the signal isn't being sent or just that the signal failed to be recieved, processed, understood, and interperted?

Are feelings something one has and learns to express or are feelings something compleatly taught?

Scientists have been trying to understand the inner state of people in general from a scientific point of view for centuries.  Not sure what words could be used.  Generally an autistic child like any child wouldn't concern themself with being different unless it becomes an issue, like parents who don't accept there child for who they are, or being bullied or teased by other children in school or adults saying nasty things about them in there presents, etc. People generally aren't aware of there differences until there made aware of the fact there is difference.  "What does it feel like?" Why would being autistic in of itself feel like anything, why would being non-autstic it on itself feel like anything?  Peoples attitudes tend to twords it is what causes people one way or another about it, but thats outside pressure.  Your the way you are that "feels" "normal" unless outside pressure changes that *shrug*.

I hope you don't take what I say to be rude.  I'm not trying to scare you away or make you want to just lurk.  I've been trying to provide some useful information and a starting point to perhaps getting your first question answered.  Its a difficult question to answer that will take some back and forth discussion to have a meaningful understooding of the answer.  :smile:

I think Sigmund Freud started a school of unhealthy thought of perfectionistic ideals of what is healthy and what is not. I think people made a great mistake in trying to "fix" people in order to make them fit this ideal.  I agree with your comment that nature doesn't make mistakes, people do.  Sigmund Freud can't be fully blaimed tho, I think stigmas on how people should be existed before Sigmund Freud.  I think everyone could be catagoried ill and maybe everyone should be just to put to much weight on the boat and make it break, so this silly cycle can be broken and people can start becomming more accepting of differences.  As people come to accept differences, people won't feel so different after all.

She actually may not have been....although it's hard to say. I have Asperger's and sometimes rock quite a bit and pick at things. Stress, nervousness, and unfamiliar surroundings or a change in routine can make this behavior more exaggerated.
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I said 'acceptance' before, but Amy's reply made me think. I haven't had much acceptance so I'm not sure...but what I can say is that I feel loved by very, very few people, and I'm sure that my family does love me somewhat. A lot of times when people say that they love me or care about me, it doesn't hit home, it's as though the statement just does not compute and goes flying off into a black hole somewhere. Hugs and physical affection can be the same- if I do not feel loved, they do nothing for me but make me feel awkward or touch aversive.

There is a book you might enjoy: The Man Who Loved Only Numbers. It's about Paul Erdos, a mathematician, true story. It doesn't say he was autistic but there's not a shadow of doubt in my mind that he was, after reading it.

I like that comparison. You know, because I am an Aspie I am compelled to be honest. When someone who is not an Aspie asks me what it is like to be an Aspie I do become apprehensive and defensive. This negative response is based on my experience that NTs are always looking for a way to enhance their own status based on the information that I give them.  For example, I am currently going through some court proceedings related to a financial crime that was done to my family. Through the process I must continually educate people about my autism. I generally get one of two responses, either the issue of autism goes ignored or it is used to profit some professional who believes that through the use of therapy or other means my issues can be resolved. I'll be more specific. I show up for an appointment with each of my shoe laces a differnt color. This makes sense to me, because why should I buy a new package of shoe laces just so that my shoe laces will match? It is logical to me that it is not necessary to have matching shoe laces. But NTs would see this as evidence that I am somehow mentally defecient. In fact, what I need is for others to realize that I am a whole person and not in need of any intervention. I need my identity to be recognized as a valid existence.  I think that there are all sorts of day to day judgements that are imposed on us as Aspies because we are cognitively different than NTs.  Does that help for you to understand? If you would like, I would even be willing to help in the developmental editing of your manuscript.  I'm an aspiring writer and I am quite good at giving feedback, but I might not always be able to express myself in ways that you would consider nonoffensive.

I can only speak for myself, but  in my experience NTs do not find me highly lovable. In fact, my perspectives seem to transgress some of their cherished ideals.  My perspective is that the "normals" are very possessive about their status and even my body language seems to threaten disorder.  Someone on these boards made the observation that NTs like to try to build consensus, even if that consensus is wrong.  Most times I have no vested interest in NT consensus because as an "oddball" I have little chance to benefit from such consensus. I was at a meeting the other day and everyone was eyes agog on the speaker, whereas I didn't see the significance of being there or following along with the crowd. During his speech I left the room and came back several times. Afterward I realized I had committed a social faux pas by doing that.  However, to my mind, there was no point in standing around listening to him reiterate information that I already knew.  I didn't mean to show disrespect, but unfortunately that is how I came across to some people who were there.  Also, it is very difficult for me to stand in a crowd because I can't maintain the posture that NTs use when listening to a speaker. I end up fidgeting or staring at the lights on the wall or twirling my hair and this becomes noticeable to the NTs who then react toward me as thought I am mentally defecient.  At such times it seems my whole existence is a threat to the status quo in many ways.  My point is, I think your character Ivor would likely be someone whose existence threatens the social status and values of the NTs.

Maybe Ivor could be a boy who is very happy in his own little world but resists rather strenuously being moved away from his favourite activities. He would therefore have a long attention span and probably a reading age far ahead of his chronological age.

The mother would probably feel that the husband and son were forming a relationship she was excluded from so she might take up drinking/going out a lot/getting heavily involved in some kind of parent's group.

I feel she might want to have another child but this would set up conflict in her mind as what if that child were autistic too?  On the one hand, she could get a baby who is neurotypical like her but she could also end up with one who is anywhere on the autistic spectrum as I would not be surprised if the father has Aspergers.

Over time, you would see some improvement in Ivor but it's possible the marriage would break up if Kathleen continued to feel isolated and that the situation in her mind would never improve.

I can see the parents having trouble finding suitable pre-school and school environments for their son and conflict developing between the parents about homeschooling him instead.

You have this all wrong. I think you have some sexist misconceptions about parenthood. Firstly, writing is a far more self centered activity than caring for young human beings 24/7. Childcare is very hard work and goes completely unpaid.  And, as a mother of three I am qualified to say that even loving parents do not necessarily love to be around their children. It can be a hellish lot of work to care for children. In fact, a large part of the time I'd rather be relaxing on a beach in Aruba...writing my novel.

This author has described a very idealist construction of parenting that diminishes motherwork both qualitatively and quantitatively. How can sitting in a quiet room creating a written work be compared with simultaneously doing five loads of laundry, cooking a meal, wiping the baby's bum, resolving a squabble, while being on hold to speak to transit information because as a disabled single mother you are too poor to own a car even if you could drive but can't because you have Asperger's? More importantly,  how is it possible to write a novel while doing motherwork? The author above has appropriated idealist principles of parenting to apply to her process as an author but the underlying ideology of her approach to the written text is sexist

There is a widely acknowledged problem in English literature which is that linear narrative is about conquest. The linear narrative is not as useful to others as it is to the unencumbered white male author because it assumes a whole range of resources that are not available to anyone considered "other". This is why most books are written by men, not only are women's lives too restricted by caregiving to allow much time for writing, but also the very way in which narrative has been structured in terms of linear progression and conquest sets up barriers for anyone who does not fit the slot of white unencumbered (nondisabled) male to tell their stories. The appropriation of motherwork in the metaphor that parenting is like writing a book is sexist.

OK, look. Do you want to spend endless amounts of time arguing nitpicky little things and defending your book, or do you want to really know what goes on in an autie's head and how we perceive things?  

Because I'll tell you something: an aspie can debate a subject for a loooong time, not out of malice or spite or even necessarily true disagreement. Some of us (and I fit into this category) just like the exercise of a debate. So don't take it personally if you feel attacked, because it isn't all that personal. Hell, I argue with books, I argue with myself, I argue even when I agree with the person I'm debating with, just to try out the other side for awhile.....

But I have doubts that this sort of exercise will be conducive to your original goal!  :wink:

Thanks Chamoisee, very well put.  I did not debate you out of meanness, V.  I went off on that tangent to provide information to be helpful.

I am still learning myself the various dimensions of my aspie nature. I've kept it closeted my whole life until the last year during which I was diagnosed. I understand more about who I am now and this emboldens me to speak my mind.  I'm sure you can relate to that, can't you V?