Aspies For Freedom

This was on Liane-Holliday Willey's site:

I really feel uncomfortable about this. Sure, girls with AS who are introduced to cosmetics might gain some self-esteem and be more accepted, but it will be on account of their looks. What sort of values will this teach to girls, who otherwise in all probability would abhor cosmetics, or be completely indifferent to them?

Feminists have been against this type of thinking for ages, knowing that it has been responsible for the persistence of sexism, discrimination and sexual violence in our society. Why then, should it make any sense at all to teach these values to girls, who have no inherent desire to emulate 'feminine' customs, and who are among the most vulnerable to discrimination and being taken advantage of? For this reason, I am urging people to write to Liane Holliday Willey at aspieinformation@yahoo.com and I am going to write too, as soon as I have the time to write a decent letter (a good couple of hours at my writing speed, lol). Liane calls herself an aspie advocate, and is an aspie herself, so there is a good chance that she will consider carefully anything that is written to her. I am sure, as said on the site, that this is not profit-motivated but nevertheless I cannot see how this could possibly do more good than harm. Intentionally or not, it is exploiting parents' fears about their children fitting in, and reinforcing gender stereotypes on aspie girls, who are more likely than their NT counterparts to 'break the mold' and pursue fulfilling lives outside of the traditional women's sphere and embrace the type of thinking it entails. It is yet another form of normalisation, completely unnecessary and potentially harmful.

I think this is essentially an advert she is making for her friend.

I think she is way off her target market though, those type of companies make money from repeat sales, and women buying a new colour lipstick because the fashion has changed.

I still have a lipstick from 1988 that isnt finished yet. :grin:

For the men



For the ladies



:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :razz:

I am not sure if sponsor means something different in the UK. As I know it sponsorship is when a child comes home from school and has a form, and the parent agrees to give 20p per lap of the playground on a bike, for example.
Or a person does a parachute jump for charity and people sign a form to give £5 if they make the jump.

How would a sponsored essay work? Or is it a different meaning?

I totally agree with you. But how often is freedom for aspies to not become like NTs made apparent? Just about every popular therapy for aspies is based on having them become normalised, rather than being self-accepting. It's not even as if this is just an attitude held towards aspies. The cosmetics industry is built upon the assumption that girls (AS or otherwise) are in need of constant improvement, through the use of their products. This is no different, except it's even worse. It's as if the cosmetics industry has realised they have an untapped reserve of consumers among aspies, and are aggressively targeting them, because their usual attempts to create conformity aren't effective. Consider the assumptions that Tina makes here:

Since when do all aspie women have difficulties buying and using skin care products and make-up? Most women aspies wouldn't even think of using cosmetics, let alone consider that they might have difficulties with them. The only reason they might be interested in them at all, would be if they felt pressured to do so, or felt that they would be more socially acceptable (or rarely, have an obsession with them). The former of which is hardly healthy for aspies, given that they already have so many other people making demands of them behaviour-wise, and the latter of which is a 'if I can't beat 'em, join 'em!' type mentality. Meaning that instead of arguing why it is wrong to value women and women aspies so much for their looks, one should just go with the flow, embracing such values by 'tarting themselves up'. Of course, the truth is aspie women don't have difficulties buying and using makeup, not until they see messages like these that imply they should be buying and using it.

If you had a teenage daughter, would you want her subjected to these sorts of messages? Telling her that among her various difficulties, she is also inadequate in the looks department? Reinforcing the sort of messages that have been done to death in advertising, that the quick-fix to her problems, the road to self-esteem will be found in the world of cosmetics? And coming from no other place than from the mouth of an aspie who claims to advocate for her?

Enigmatic Oddity, would you have the same problem with Liane & Tina's special deal if it was only available to women, and not teenage girls?

As a 30-year-old woman, I'd like to be able to use make-up to cover up my acne scars (dating from an attack I had in my mid-20s), but I have difficulty even with something as basic as foundation. It emphasises dry patches and wrinkles I didn't know I had. Women's magazines aren't much help, because the people who write the beauty features have a unlimited budget to spend on make-up. Don't forget you have to replace your make-up (if only for reasons of hygiene) every six months or so and invest in good-quality brushes! Or so they say...

I once read that research has shown that women who wear make-up get promoted at work more than those who don't. So maybe there's a cost-benefit argument to be made here!

Hi Sjo, there is a cream called 'Dermablend' that is used to cover scars. It is available from Boots as far as I know. It is used for port wine stains, burn scars, and should work for acne scars. It is supposed to be very good, some therapists use it for patients.

It comes in different shades. For make up, if you go to a department store that sells such products, you can usually ask for a free test, makeover, of the products, if you book in advance. Boots sometimes does that too.
My mum used to get them, she loved freebies.

You shouldn't have to buy any of the products, unless you liked them and wanted to.

Lili said " I've got to admit that I've been tempted to buy a camoflauge outfit and matching camo make up at army surplus stores, but that gear really doesn't fit my suburban mum lifestyle."

Lili, I wanted to, and went ahead and did it! Its great for walks in the countryside. :grin:

:grin:

Hi Liane, I have not seen your site before and had a quick look.
I think content is more important than typos, so I wouldnt worry about typos.

I think the comments we made were generally about our own views on make up, most everyone has a personal view or experience that they want to share about such topics.

Liane,

I never said you had any ill intent; I said that regardless of intent, you were doing Aspies a disservice by encouraging young girls and women to take so much heed to their appearances. I have no wish to personally attack you, simply to ask you to reconsider how you advocate for your fellow Aspies.

You have by now read through some arguments why it is harmful to do what you are doing. Just as many in the medical profession who promote liposuction surgery say they are doing a service to women who want to feel better about their looks, you are essentially doing the same thing. But by providing such services, you are reinforcing the attitudes that lead one to use such services in the first place. The service's existence suggests to young women that they should be taking measures to improve their beauty.

Professor Christopher Gillberg recently found that autistic spectrum disorders are present in a number of cases of anorexia nervosa and bulimia. These make up a small number but tend to be the most severe cases. Eating disorders, as I'm sure you're aware, are mainly a Western phenomenon and begin as obsessions with weight and appearance. Knowing this, and that Aspies are by nature prone to obsessive thoughts, could you say that what you are doing is responsible?

There are some Aspies who do have cosmetics as an obsession, who you cater for. I am speculating when I say that some of them don't even think of how this is appreciated by others, but do this for themselves and for their benefit alone. But to the female Aspie who wants desperately to fit in and be liked, an obsession with makeup could be very damaging. It could easily lead to an obsession with appearance, when messages around them are constantly telling them that beauty is the ultimate virtue.

I know you mean only to help. But often the way in which to do this isn't clear, and here I think you have erred in judgement. Please consider what I have said, and I remind you that I am not attacking you personally. In fact, I read your book a while ago. It gave me comfort in knowing that others shared my experiences (especially those of childhood) and some hope for the future.

The study has been posted about already joe, do a keyword search of the forum for it.

I don't necessarily think that make-up concerns could make someone develop anorexia, I know that in the past it was felt that fear of not being thin, fashionable, pretty, could make pressure on a girl and she could become anorexic in an attempt for perfection.

I think the recent study shows that it is much more complex than that, and internal factors such as obsession, rigid routine, lack of communication, compound the risk factors.

"I have been to a job interview were I was criticized for not wearing make up and not "plucking my eyebrows enough"."

Eyebrows! What on earth are these people thinking to make such personal remarks! Unless the job was for 'eyebrow plucker' it's none of their business.
I've had very stupid things said to me in the past in interviews, I wish I had a tape recorder with me.

Hell no. Unless you're trying to be a fashion model (and even that is debatable, if you want to go into whether beauty=sexual attractiveness argument). Honestly, I think the fashion and cosmetics industries get enough money without having workplaces pushing female workers into buying overpriced products that nobody needs.

Thanks Liane, do you have any views on autistic pride day? Did you hear about it in time to participate in any way, or will you have any event next year?

I don't agree that this is just an issue of being 'free' to live your own lifestyle, but I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue because I know you're also right. I just think it's a shame that anyone (certainly not everyone who uses makeup, but many) would seek to find self-esteem in their physical appearance and in how they are perceived by others, rather than being happy with how they perceive themselves. I would rather that women be respected without having to play their (the cosmetics & fashion industries) game.