Aspies For Freedom

That pretty much sounds like every Aspie I know anything about. None of us fit in with our culture, and we feel, think and behave different from people around us. The negative consequences are that people don't accept us, because we don't fit their preconceived ideas of what people should be like to be acceptable.

No wonder that so many Aspies get misdiagnosed with personality disorders!

Hey, they are describing my husband! And I am not kidding here, this definitely fits him. He is obsessed with rules and regulations, with checking up on people (particularly me and our youngest daughter), is so inflexible in his ideas of what's acceptable (in his opinion) for her to wear, and for me to behave, that it pretty much drives us insane. He is the most controlling person I know. And he can, in his opinion, back up his insanity with the bible (misinterpreting it, but in his opinion, only his interpretation is right).

And from his, in his opinion amusing childhood anecdotes, I can see that he has been this way from childhood. No wonder his brother is his mother's favourite. Of course, she never realized that his behaviour is problematic enough to maybe take him to a psychiatrist.

I bet that if he would be gone, my depression would clear up right away. Because it's the way he wants to control me, and me having to fight for Susie's right to be who she is that's overwhelming me to the point of not wanting to live. If he wasn't around I wouldn't need to see a counselor every week just to survive.

It's going so far, that when Susie bought herself a pair of pretty, dangly silver earrings the other day (they have two curly things each hanging down about two inches, which look just like her curls, which she thinks is cool), he claims they are 'immoral' and just as unacceptable for her to wear as miniskirts, and shirts that don't cover her stomach when she lifts her arms.

I bought her a two piece bathing suit last month, with boy cut bottoms and as far as I am concerned, a modest top. He saw her in that two days ago and is outraged that I got her that, and says that she is never to wear it again, and I have to buy her something 'more suitable'. She loves that bathing suit (and I paid $80.00 for it).

She refuses to wear dresses now, because she says she is not going to wear the kind of dresses that Ken would allow her to wear, her friends would laugh at her. I agree, it's true. She is drop-dead gorgeous and looks much older than 13 (she is also 5'8" tall, and has been for a year now), has been fully developed for a couple of years. Ken can't handle that. He tries everything to stop boys from wanting to look at her. If it was acceptable here to veil your girls like they do in Muslim countries, he would undoubtedly do it.

I hope you can "hang in there" Uschi!

I found it interesting that you identified your husband's controlling behaviour as a major source of distress. I've read some stuff about AS that cites that kind of behaviour as an autistic trait. I'm not so sure myself, as it seems to be common male behaviour, so I'd be more inclined to explain it as male behaviour. You have got to tell your consellor about this problem, if you haven't done so already.

Be honest, how much of your husband's controlling behaviour is due to Christian attitudes towards sexuality? I get the impression that things might be different for you if not for the influence of the church. I know that some truly pointless and damaging marriages have been prolonged because one or both partners had strong Christian beliefs against divorce, or lacked the kind of social network that would be supportive to a partner who initiated a divorce. I'm not saying "Get a divorce" or "Stop being a Christian", I'm just asking you to think about the influence of your beliefs on your life. Do your beliefs leave you with enough room to live?

On the subject of personality disorder misdiangosis and AS, I have two points to make.

This is a link to an academic paper that states that autistic kids can be misdiagnosed with personality disorders
http://trainland.tripod.com/sula.htm

I read the book "Party of one: the loners' manifesto" by Anneli Rufus a while ago. It is a book about loners and lonerism, which I think is probably the same thing as mild Aspergers. The author, a proud loner, clearly states in the book that she has been examined by a mental health profesional and judged to be not insane or sick. But the funny thing is that the librarian who wrote the comment about the book that is found on the Australian state library cataloguing for that book did not agree with the author of the book, and the librarian declared that the book is about personality disorders. This is the blurb given to the book by some smartarse "A celebration of the loner, reassesses the cultural revulsion heaped on this type-A group." "Type-A" refers to the Cluster A of personality disorders. I don't think the term "type-A" was never mentioned in the book itself, it appears to be an amateur psychiatric diagnosis by a librarian. So even if a professional psych says you are sane, if you're a loner some dope in the street might still feel confident to categorise you as nuts or abnormal, so strong is the popular prejudice against loners.

When I wrote that I think that controlling behaviour can be a male trait, I was thinking about the way that rules that control the sexual and social behaviour of women is a part of so many cultures and religions, but the controlling of male behaviour is just a minor thing. I was thinking of stuff like veils and Islam (and there are some Christian tradtions of veiling females too, the wedding veil, the Catholic church veil and some Christian nuns wear a veil the same as a hijab). I believe there are important rules in Islam that control the behaviour of women only. There is the tradtion of female mutilation across a number of countries, religions and continents. It appears that males wishing to control females is a human universal trait.

Sunny, if you are trying to argue that religions such as Christianity or Islam restrict the behaviour of both sexes to the same degree, then I think you would be going against a huge general consensus of opinion. There is no way that you can argue that female mutilation has equal effects as male mutilation (I don't agree with either, myself). I hope I haven't annoyed to many people by diverting the debate to such controversial subjects.

M wrote

I'm not sure that there are any effective therapies for personality disorders. My impression from the little that I know about the subject is that psychiatrists and other therapists don't expect much in the way of results.

In reply to your question, I believe any kind of misdiagnosis of an autistic person is a tragedy, as it is a red herring that could prevent the client from ever discovering the truth, and it could lead to dangerous or unnecessary medication, or worse consequences. Medical doctors often argue that alternative therapies are a bad thing even if they aren't dangerous, because they distract patients from seeking effective medical care. Well, I could make a similar argument about psychiatric misdiagnosis, it distracts the "patient" from seeking and finding genuinely helpful information. Life is short, why spend it barking up the wrong tree?

I would be interested to know if anyone has been given an AS/autism diagnosis after some mental health professional has discovered that their initial diagnosis was wrong, after further dealings with the patient. Do psychs ever review their own decisions or admit their own mistakes?

Lili, I know many men that aren't a thing like my husband, who respect their wives, don't try to meddle with every decision they make, and who allow their daughters to be themselves (within reason, of course). As to Christian attitudes, this is the biggest problem: We were for 18 years of our marriage (and Ken from the age of 18 before that) members of a cult church (not a known cult, it evolved from an Anglikan church to be more and more of a cult). In this church women were second class citizens, and men were encouraged to not involve their wives in any important decisions, and to suppress them in the name of 'submission'.

The 'minister' would twist what the bible says, would take passages completely out of context and generally misinterpret the bible to fit his preconceived ideas. It went so far, that what he said was considered to be 'straight from Jesus', and more important than what the bible says.

Ken was completely brainwashed (and still is to quite a degree). What this idiot leader of the church taught was what Ken liked to hear, because he likes to control everyone and everything (including himself) to begin with. It was a complete nightmare. Since friendships outside this church were discouraged, and friendships within that church were destroyed (if I'd talk to a friend today, and had a heachache tomorrow, I'd be told that somehow talking to her, by her not 'being in Jesus but rather under demons' had caused my headache, and I was to avoid her from now on, because she wasn't good for me), his parents were rejecting me, I had nobody to turn to for help.

Since I don't conform, and it's not possible to truly brainwash me (I think for myself), I was treated like an outcast by the leader, and a lot of the time by my husband as well, because I'd voice my opinions on things, and tell Ken that what we were taught isn't to be found anywhere in the bible, and that it was wrong.

Eventually I got so sick of it, that I mustered up the courage to quit going to church on Sundays (which in their opinion, probably damned me to hell), and half a year later Ken quit going as well.

In the nine years since we left that horrible place, we've attended two other churches, which are completely, utterly unlike that cult. The one we are in now in particular honours and respects women and would never allow the abuses that happened in the cult church.

The biggest problem is, that Ken comes off as this loving, helpful, knowledgable guy wherever he goes. He treats me with the utmost respect when in public, he usually speaks well of me to others in our church. Meaning that people think he is this sweet, loving, caring husband, and that when I complain about him, I must just be.........well, a complainer who doesn't appreciate my excellent husband.

And of course, he has been elected an elder, and is head of the missions committee, and he is doing all these good works, and giving away all this money, NEVER raises his voice (he controls himself as well), appearing sooooooooo very sane (and me, who gets meltdowns, MUST be the one with the problems, and him being so patient with his poor, ill wife, right?) he must be a great guy!

If you'd read more on Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, you'd find that when these people are Christians, they aren't your ordinary Christians, but will rather be legalistic, fanatic ones. They will insist that everything the bible says has to be taken exactly as it says and applied that way (and that there is no such a thing as something only fitting into the context of biblical times, and has to be adapted to our times).

One example is, that the bible supposedly says, that women are to have long hair to be good Christians (Ken's interpretation). As my picture shows, I don't have long hair now (I used to up to six years ago), because I was unable to care for it, due to fibromyalgia (I couldn't lift my arms long enough to put up my hair any more), plus, my sensory issues with not liking hair to touch my skin (especially my cheeks, and anywhere other than my neck) forced me to have it cut off.

Well, Ken was VERY unhappy with that. He told me that short hair for women is unbiblical, and I'm not a good Christian if I have short hair. He wanted me to have our youngest daughter do my hair every day, instead of cutting it off. Which is pure insanity on his part. I am NOT going to rely on a child to do my hair for me every day! Besides, I totally disagree with him on the hair issue, anyway.

Being in here is, in his opinion, a total waste of time, I could be doing something productive instead, like reading the bible. If I don't do housework or read the bible, I'm wasting my time. So, since he uses the bible as a weapon (always quoting verses at me to prove that I'm not really a Christian, and to show me where I ought to improve), I don't feel like reading it much.

He said the other day to me, "You know, you won't be able to get to heaven on my ticket, you better get your butt in gear". Meaning, that right now, in his opinion, I'd go to hell. I just talked to a friend the other day, and she told me that she had no doubt I was going to heaven, but she was quite concerned that Ken won't make it. And I agree with her.

So, all I am trying to say is, that Christianity is not at fault with the way Ken treats me and Susie. It is just what he uses to control us. If he wasn't a Christian, he'd use something else.

"i tend to mirror other people so i have received a wide variety of interpretations."

I have heard quite a few autistics say the same about mirroring, I used to do it when I was younger and had more contact with people. Having tried to analyse it later, it seems that NTs build their personality on a series of affectations taken from those around them, family, friends, celebrities, and autistics take these on much less. The result is the appearance of less NT style personality, appearing less expressive, but actually having emotions equally or greater than, but not using the same affectations of speech and movement to put them across.

We can then mirror someone in a setting, such as a job, in order to try and communicate in their own style.
This is just a theory of mine, and may be a possible reason.

Uschi wrote

I think I know the type! I guess other ideological or belief systems besides Christianity can be used as a tool to disempower others. One example that comes to mind is the gumph that managerial types go on and on about, for example, "You've got to be a team player, so do what I say like everyone else does" and "You've got to be competitive, and I decide who the winner is".

I think it is true that the bible says somewhere that women should have long hair and men short hair but must not shave. I have no idea why a deity should be so concerned with people's grooming habits, or private lives. I once had a middle-aged stranger tell me how much he liked my hair (when I used to grow it long due to general lack of interest in the services of hairdressers). He said the bible says a woman's hair is her crowning glory. That got me thinking about getting a haircut.

Thanks, M. As I stated earlier, I also have developed a sensory issue to long hair, which had made it essential the last years of having my hair long to either put it up or wear it in a braid. Which is what the fibromyalgia eventually stopped me from doing. But my husband is the only person I know who is judging me on cutting my hair because of that. He is also trying to force me to submit to him in a way which is unbiblical, as in being a doormat. Nowhere does it say in the bible you are supposed to be a doormat if you're a woman!

My two oldest daughters, who are both married, have no problem with submitting to their husbands, because these guys are the most loving husbands you want to meet. When my oldest daughter is worn out from looking after four little ones at night, and supper isn't cooked when her husband comes home from a long day at work, he'll even cook supper for the family without complaining. The same goes for changing stinky diapers or cleaning.

As to wearing dresses, that's again a sensory issue. I can not stand my legs rubbing together. I have nothing against dresses. But I wear them only when I have to.

And you're right, my husband is extremely legalistic and fanatic. He lives by rules and regulations. And if there isn't a rule for something, he makes one up and expects everybody to follow it.

Lili, I think I heard once that the reason for the rule about long hair in biblical times was, that only prostitutes cut their hair short. So, in order not to be thought of as a prostitute, Christian women were told to have long hair. It was a cultural thing, that doesn't apply any more, as far as I am concerned. Still, I don't really like women to have a haircut so short that they look like men. But of course, as you can see, my haircut is still feminine.

And of course, most men don't have beards these days, either, so why would they think they should make women  have long hair? But, of course, my husband has a beard as well as a mustache (which is why I have refused to kiss him for the past 20 years, because I can't handle it poking my lips)  :roll: .

I do feel its possible that your husband has some major issues from the way he treats you Uschi.

Amy, as I said in my first reply in this thread, I really strongly believe now that Ken has Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. The more I read about it, the more obvious it becomes. Unfortunately, there is no treatment, because the people that have it think of themselves as perfect, and everybody else having problems. You can't treat somebody for something they don't acknowledge.

He really, truly believes that he is a loving husband and father. A few years ago, he asked me if I agreed that he was the best husband in the world. I said, 'no, I don't think you are'. Instead of asking me what issues I might have with the way he treats me, he just laughed and told me that one of these days I'd learn to appreciate him.

Nobody can change anybody but themselves. He is not willing to change (or to even listen when somebody has issues with him), and I can't change him. I have changed a whole lot these past years, but he has only changed for the worse.

My second youngest daughter said the other day, that many times this past year she was very afraid that I might kill myself. She said that I have improved so much lately (I believe mainly due to finally finding out about TS and AS, and being a little more relaxed and accepting myself), but that Dad is getting more controlling and unreasonable all the time. And that from the kid who is the most like her father, and is a little manipulator herself (she will be 20 next month).

Thank you, M. It's nice to know that some things I do make a difference. I don't think Ken is angry. He just truly believes that you're wasting your time when you're not working, doing good works or reading the bible.

Well, as long as spouses don't have to live together in heaven, I'll be happy   .
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Uschi wrote

This is one of the many reasons why I just don't find religion believable. If there really is a heaven, then it must be a fun place for everyone who goes there. But there must be lots of married couples who are eligible to both go there, but which have one spouse who does not wish to spend eternity in the company of their other half. So if the other spouse would be unhappy to be deserted just inside the pearly gates, then it logically follows that both spouses could not be happy in heaven. But if anyone is unhappy there, it can't be heaven, can it?

On a more serious note, the thing that puzzles me about Uschi's marriage is why does her husband appear to want things to stay the same as they are? If things are really as bleak as Uschi says they are, it raises the question of why does her husband not appear to want things to change?

I can think of two possible reasons. Maybe he is one of those NTs who get most of the satisfaction from relationships in their life from relationships with people outside of their own families, so they aren't too bothered if their relationships with their spouses and kids stink. I think I know one such NT personally. This kind of NT is often very popular in the wider community, often is admired for doing lots of volunteer work, but no one seems to wonder if it is at the expense of their family. I can think of one man who rose to a high office doing volunteer work, but was criticised by some for using this volunteer work as an escapist way of ignoring his financial and paid work problems. He had a wife and young family.

I can think of another possible explanation for why Uschi's spouse does not appear to want to fix things. I think there are some people who have radically deluded beliefs about people in their families, even people who they should know really well like spouses or children. I think AS could be part of the problem here, because as we know NTs sometimes read our intentions and emotions and body language completely wrong, but still remain confident that they understand us. I think I have someone in my family who has a very deluded idea of who I am, and when my behaviour violates their deluded idea of what I am really like (as it must) they interpret this behaviour that is inconsistent with their ideas as intentional spite rather than me just being me.

I find the situation puzzling too! I agree that it isn't a simple situation in which one person is the villain and the other tht victim. But I do understand how frustrating it can be to live with someone who is supposed to understand you as a person, but doesn't.

I think there is something a bit dishonest about your husband being a leader in your community, "helping troubled youth" etc, while the reality is that his marriage is in trouble. He is in the kind of position in which people see him as a role model, and at least some people must assume that his private life is running just fine following Biblical guidelines, but we know that isn't the truth.

A couple of times in my life I've been in the position of having to traipse around as the shadow or partner of someone who always has lots of people hanging around, and I'm so glad I don't have that pressure and stress any more.

You wrote

I've been told that a few times by a relative. I just can't be bothered with them any more.

M wrote

I think most marriages have a "use by" date. Once you get to a certain age divorce becomes too impractical if you don't have lots of money.

Quote from an Australian current affairs show about marriage

11 years isn't long when you consider that marriage is supposed to be forever.

and

Divorce isn't necessarily the worst way in which a marriage can end. I can think of worse scenarios.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/stories/s289889.htm

M, I didn't write the article, nor do I particularly endorse what it says. It was just a useful source of references to stats.

With regard to arranged marriages, if I had to marry some bloke chosen by my folks I just can't imagine what kind of ridiculous mess I would be in now. You know, lot's of parents either don't like or don't understand their own kids. Would you trust someone like that to make the most important decision of your life for you? Gimme a break!