Aspies For Freedom

I agree with Amy and Uschi.

Stims should be allowed if they are not offensive in any way.

There is a german Author who was diagnosed either AS or autistic when he was a child. He got language therapy, as much as I can remember and he went to a regular school, although he always had problems with language. At the age of about 35 (I'm not too sure about the exact age) he decided for himself to change to "the other world" and he wrote a price winning book.

I saw him about two years ago on an authors-reading (?don't know the correct term) and for me he seemed to be completely NT. He put an obsession on acting normal, he learned it like an actor, only for himself, I think. (and that's the way I learned to make my face and body show/act like NT - once I decided that I would like it better, having facial expressions like people on tv, I sat down in front of a mirror and trained)

I am not sure about his relatives, if there were autistic people, but I never heard of.

So there is always hope. Try to find  a thing your daughter loves and might love to communicate about, so she might find communication desirable.

Sibylle

Thank you for posting these articles.   From the Misbehaviour of Behaviourists.

So this is what ABA is:

"In 1991, researchers from Rutgers, including the well-known behaviourists Sandra Harris and Jan Handleman, published a study about the consequences of aversives in autism programs. The study was called "Does punishment hurt? The impact of aversives on the clinician." They compared the morale and job satisfaction of more than 100 staff, divided into those who could use only mild aversives, and those who could use severe aversives on their autistic clients. Severe aversives included (and one assumes were not limited to) "slap, pinch, electric shock, noxious odor, noxious liquid, and hair pull."  

Children are slapped, pinched, shocked, exposed to noxious odours or liquids or their hair pulled when they fail to "learn" an "appropriate" behaviour or stop an "inappropriate" one.

"Restraints were removed from the scope of this study when no one involved could decide whether their use on autistics constituted a "mild" or "severe" aversive. Clearly, they did not ask an autistic. Nor did anyone notice that autistics had been injured and killed in restraints, which might argue for a classification of "severe".  "

Restraints are used to stop natural behaviour of running away from the abuser.  So can't these people see the Stockholm syndrome happening?  Children often love their abuser parents too.

"These ethical and human rights aspects of autism-ABA haven't been addressed, and autistics have been excluded from all committees, panels, boards, etc., charged with developing, directing, and assessing ABA research and treatment programs. Behaviourists are free to act unimpeded on their assumption that autistic behaviours--for example, the way we move and play--because they fail to be like non-autistic behaviours, are useless and worthless. ASAT's information library approvingly reports elaborate behaviour interventions designed to remove autistic behaviours. For instance, the whole ABA repertoire is deployed to prevent an autistic from flapping his hands while he is alone. This article admits that autistic behaviours stubbornly persist even when the autistic is unsupervised. When I told Dr Sallows that I flapped my hands I immediately had to reassure him that I did not do this in public. Then I pointed out that different kinds of people, so long as they're not autistic, are allowed to behave according to their differences in public. But you're not allowed to run down the street with a gun, Dr Sallows said. You are when you're the police, I said, and added that blind people, for example, can wave white canes around or take dogs into restaurants. Dr Sallows replied, but they're blind. "

That says it all doesn't it?   Autistics can learn to mimic behaviours considered acceptable in public.  But they will still do them when they are alone.  So all that suffering for something they could do themselves if they wanted to.  Most kids do realize at some point that tantrums, and hand flapping might not be rewarding behaviours.  I don't think that has to be achieved by slapping them or worse.  A complete waste of money for ABA.

I'd suggest taking her, for just a few minutes at a time, to new places that you think she may enjoy, when you're not in a rush to do errands.  Maybe a quiet playground when there are no other children around, or a walk in the woods, something like that.  You mentioned that she likes mechanical things; maybe you could take her to a shop that sells interesting gadgets, at a time when it's not crowded.

Try to talk to her in advance. Tell her why you have to go there. Reassure her that she will be safe there. Tell her, that you will leave if she gets too frightened (but only, if it is possible, she must rely on your words). Maybe you can talk about a special sign she can give when she feels it is too much for her (that will take a lot of time! until it works), so you can leave, without her becoming too upset. Maybe you can tell her that you feel uncertain as well, when being in a new place and that that feeling is ok. Even if she does not respond with words (as you said she doesn't speak a lot), she might get what you want to tell her.

If it is only a short stay for you, maybe she could stay in the car (if you go there by car - that's what my 7yr old son sometimes like better) if you find a parking space where she can see the shop. But you have to talk to her about that before actually doing it (maybe several times, so she really knows what's going on).

And try to explain the world to her. If she's interestet in machines, explain how a vaccuumcleaner works, explain kitchen machines and then, even if she is not very interested in it, try to explain why people do things "by the way". For example, if someone is walking the street on a red light, tell it is not ok, but that ppl sometimes do things wrong. Guess what the reasons for such behavior might be, so your daughter will learn, guessing is part of life (as it is for my son and me - we only can guess why ppl act like they do, we can't read body language very well and in the example one anyway would only be able to guess).

If she does not feel comfortable being hugged, just tell her, you love her. That's what I missed as a child - I felt unloved because I never understood (and wanted) body language, hugging and stuff. But I longed for my parents to tell me they loved me, which they didn't (at least not with words) because they used body language.

Don't do any of all the proposes if you think your daughter would become upset with it.

Sibylle

Well, even if she does not understand it yet, keep talkin (in easy words) about what you are doing and especially about her interests. She might get an interest in conversation when she gets the idea what she might need it for.

Sorry, I don't know any videos about autism.

But I've seen a documentary about a young german adolescent woman, who did quite well at school and then got a job (it's learning on a job, don't know the right vocabulary). After a short while she stopped communicating - completely! She was not diagnosed by then and her mother had a hell of a time to get through to her daughter. On tv the young woman saw something about aspergers and looked it up in internet and had herself diagnosed then. After that it went better, she found out, what she needed to prevent herself from overload.

What I want to say with that story is, that overloading might make it worse. I have much more problems now, that I'm single mother, than when being married (even having problems with my husband) and having help with the kids and getting the time off that I needed.

So just be careful with her. Why should one be social if not wanting/needing it at that age? Does your husband go to every social event you'd like him to go with you? Maybe that would be an argument? Maybe you would like to go to concerts/theatre and he doesn't or something like that? Would he force you to go to see soccer? Would he expect his best friend to go to watch Wimbledon if the friend was not interested? People like different things and if something is too boring or scary (like rollercoaster or ghost train) they can decide on their own. He would not force her to see scary films, wouldn't he? So why having her going to scary social events? Maybe you can find some arguments there.

Sibylle

You can also find an Aspie Quiz developed by Aspies on Leif's Page.

Hi Sunny Daze,

Would it be possible to take some photos of the places you have to visit with you child. I found these really help my Son. But other than what everyone else has said I can't really think of anything else that might help.
I have an appreciation of what you are saying about discusions between yourself and your husband on him wanting your child to join in busy activities, in the past I have had many of these with my husband, we often end up doing different activities at the weekend and in the school holidays because my Son is unable to join in. I think it is really important for you to stress your child is behaving in this manner because she is frightend and confused and not because she does not want to be there.
To get my son use to the supermaket I take him there every morning at 7.30am when not many other people are around, we always go to the same one to start of with I would just drive into the car park on the way to the park, then one day I showed him the photo of the shop and I also showed him a photo of inside the shop and I told him we would go in and buy him a Thomas the Tank engine magazine (the magazines are the nearest things to the door) and to my surprise it went really well, he held my hand and we managed to get in and out within minutes. I wondered could it be the lighting in the shops that she does not like, but if you say it is anywhere new it is probably just that.
Also like you I feel somewhere between NT and aspie. my scores are
AQ34
EQ11
SQ37
Leifs now 121 earlier 163.
I don't know what my IQ score is but I don't think it would be very high at all, in fact I would imagine it to be low.

Thats exactly what we do at home. I have a visual timetable so my Son can see everything that we are doing that day, and what time  it cuts down on his anxiety a lot. I hope it helps.

As for posting a different question as different topics I don't now.

She is probably wondering why girls and boys are not the same.  You can buy children's picture books that describe the parts of the body in simple terms; maybe that would help?

Hi Sunny

Your daughter and mine sound very very similar. She's also got a Boob fascination. I think Freud would have something to say about it but I just put it down to natural curiosity.

I just found out about all these tests! I got:

AQ: 38
EQ: 17
SQ: 29
Lief Now: 129
Lief Earlier: 123

No idea what that signifies though!

Sounds as if you may have quite a few aspie traits yourself, Kev.   :smile:

Really? Well, I wouldn't be massively shocked  :wink: ASD is genetic after all and Megan must've got it from either Naomi or me and since I have two close family members who were both on the spectrum it seems a very likely probability that I'm going to have some traits at the very least.

Its something I've been turning over in my own mind for awhile and I've talked to my good friend the AutismDiva about it as well. I don't feel I've any burning need for a diagnosis as I've got through nearly 36 years without one but on the other hand it may put certain questions to rest - or maybe pose other ones! I'd be the first to admit that I've had issues in my life that could be explainable by a diagnosis but at this stage of the game I'm not sure what practical good a diagnosis would do me.

I'll not go on about it here as I don't want to hijack SunnyDaze's excellent and helpful thread but if anyone has any advice for me then I'd be glad (and thankful!) to discuss it via email or PM  :smile:

LOL...I'm not so sure :wink: I think if anything the only tag that truly fits me is 'crotchety old man'  :lol:

You know Sunny, you're not doing your daughter a favour by thinking this way. She is smart enough to know that you're afraid to really discipline her, so there is no deterrent for her behaviour at all. And if your friends will shriek and laugh, same thing. It will make her think that it's actually a funny thing to do, when it is not!

My second oldest daughter used to run into the street, sometimes right in front of a car, and I just managed to grab her in time a couple of times. She did that especially when she was 22 months old, and I was nine months pregnant with my son. She knew that I couldn't run as fast as her at that time.

She wouldn't listen at all, so I ended up giving her a good smack on the bum whenever she did that, and she stopped. I wasn't going to have her run over and killed rather than giving her a spank! Eventually she understood the reason why you can't just jump onto the road and realized it is a dangerous thing to do. But until she did, she needed to be afraid of getting spanked as a deterrent.

With some kids reasoning works. My second youngest daughter was very cautious and tried to keep everybody off the road, telling them it was dangerous, when she was barely two. But some kids will absolutely not listen to reason at all, and if you won't be firm with them (and give them the occasional spank), they'll end up being out of control (actually, I should say, they ARE in control, because they'll be running the show) and driving you up the wall.

Now, I am not talking BEATING a kid, that is definitely abuse. But with some kids you really have to establish who is boss, and let them know that certain behaviours will absolutely not be tolerated. And if they won't listen to reason, then a gentle slap is appropriate in certain situations.

Anyway, this is my opinion, after raising five kids (who are very different from each other). I've said my peace, what you do with my advice is your business. And fortunately, I don't have to put up with that aspect of your daughter's behaviour.

I hope you'll figure out a solution to this dilemma.

I agree.  Children should not be allowed to laugh and disobey when they are told "no."  There needs to be some sort of consequence, not necessarily a slap, but maybe taking away a video game or some other privilege.  Pinching and grabbing people and other annoying behavior may seem cute and funny when she is 6, but you don't want her to be acting like that when she is 16 because she hasn't learned any better, do you?