Aspies For Freedom

My 7.5 yr old son likes to "die from self-pity" whenever he behaved wrong (like hitting, shouting bad words, biting, sometimes unarticulated shouting/crying) and we talked about that behavior.

I try to explain to him, that most people (sometimes including me  :roll: ) don't understand his needs when he gets aggressive or just shouts/cries, but of course he is much too young to control all of his affects and behavior by intellect (even if he is high gifted in some ways).

Just befor Christmas 2003 he was talkin bout suicide (it was a horrible time for him, they tried to force him from school and I did not have any professional help, dealing with AS) and he still ist talking about that a lot - but I think it is only, because school and other parents made a lot of trouble of his sayings. If we had only talked privately, this would have ended or be much better, I guess. But now he knows that talking about death and murder and suicide will make people upset.

So I fear, that if I pay too much attention to his self-pity, he will keep continuing and reinforce that behavior. On the other hand, I know, that he believes that he is right with what he does. He does the full program (like any NT kid would do for a while, I suppose, but when he gets used to it, it will be much harder to change) of self-pity, like "nobody loves me", "I do wrong all the time" (which is not true and he knows it and gets it told every day), "it would be better to be dead" and so on   I can hear from his crying that it is anger/terrorising and self-pitying in changes, at least that's what it sounds to me.

Does anybody have another suggestion what to do about it? I usually try to ignore it or tell him that only he can change his behavior and that I and a lot of other people try to help him, but that he must want things to be changed.

Sibylle

I suggest a mild punishment, such as sending him to his room, to discourage him from self-pitying talk.

The next time he starts this sort of talk, tell him that you have already explained it is his own responsibility to improve his behavior, you do not want to hear any more self-pitying talk, and he can go to his room and talk to himself until he calms down.

How about a similar strategy. The technique of rewarding good behaviour, and ignoring the bad behaviour.
So for example, he comes home from school and you have a chat, and he is talking about a hobby, and you give him lots of praise and attention. If an hour later he starts the self pity talk, then ignore it, change the subject, go and make a drink, etc.
As soon as he moves to anything other subject, give him rewarding attention and praise again.

He should learn to focus less on the negative.

The only exception I would make for this, or any child, is if the behaviour takes a severe turn, and the child describes being bullied, or something similar, and wants to self harm, or actually does self harm or attempt suicide. This can't be ignored, and needs some professional advice.

I don't feel the emotion of embarrassment. It may have caused a lot of problems in the past and maybe my life would be different if I did feel it, but thats just the way it is.

However I hate to be criticized and find that really hard to deal with, if someone just insults me I couldn't care less, but a specific criticism is horrible.

I agree. When I realize I have (again) said something totally off, I get terribly embarassed. And if it was something that was hurtful (and I never mean to hurt anybody), I'll beat myself up over that for weeks or longer, and can get very depressed. There have been times when I lost a friend (or somebody I thought was my friend) over saying something, and I'd feel like killing myself, because I felt I was utterly worthless and despicable. Of course, that was before I knew about AS and TS.

I was depressed as a child already, and wanted to be dead, because it seemed that I could never do anything right. I was bullied and criticized constantly. Also, because more was expected of me than I could handle, I was in a constant overload mode. I remember a period of several weeks when I was 8, when I had turned off completely and ran on 'automatic pilot'. During that time reality had become a dream, and I was living in a dreamworld, pretending it was reality. I didn't even hear the teachers during that time and didn't give any answers. Strangely, nobody seemed to think there was a problem. I don't remember what brought me out of that, but it would have been easier to stay there forever. I had another episode of this when 15.

"I know that worked with me. What didn't work was for mum to make excuses for the other person if they said or did something to upset me eg. they didn't say hello back when I said hello or if they spoke in a rude tone of voice."

So was it minor things like that upsetting you? Does that still upset you today? Were you bullied aswell, and this was on top of that?

As for Sibylle's child, its not really fair to compare yourself completely with her child, as he may be feeling different to you, and it may really be a self-pity and attention seeking device from him. I know a few people like that and it makes things worse if you let them continue on a negative spiral.

"Amy, these things might appear minor to other people but I can assure you they are not minor to us people with AS. Yes, I was bullied and mostly this was once I left home - this was by people who should have known better of course but being a country girl and very naive for my age I was the perfect target."

I have AS too, in my opinion if someone doesn't say hello back to you, that is minor in comparison with a lot of things that happen in life. I never said bullying is minor.

When I was 6 or 7 years old, I often got sent to my room for "dramatizing," as my father called it.  I never had any serious depression or other problems.  I just liked to make a lot of noise and get attention.  My parents didn't argue or lecture me about it, they just let me know that they weren't interested in listening to pointless complaints.

Of course, that's not necessarily going to be the best approach for every child, and some do have problems that need more attention.

Sibylle

I know exactly what you mean about the noise getting to you, my son when he whines makes an awful noise that I really can't stand in fact after a few minutes it really begins to make me feel angry. I tell him that the noise hurts my ears but it doesn't make any difference to him at the moment. I used to put him in the hallway when he got to upset to communicate in any way to allow him time to calm down, these days he puts himself in a small squashy cupboard to calm himself down. Do you think some of the self pitying is because of things that have happened at school, I know if my daughter has had a bad day she will bring all her problems home and we can sometimes have a terrible evening, sometimes this is caused by other kids mocking her and sometimes because she didn't understand her lessons. She also can do the self pity thing for attention. I usually try and involve the whole family in a game or some cooking giving her loads of praise, sometimes this works.

I hope you find an answer soon.

Amy how did you find the best way for someone to point out that what you done was wrong? My Son is so sensitive to anyone pointing out even the smallest of errors, an example of this is if someone tells him to leave a door open instead of closing it he becomes very anxious he will not/can not look at the person and his eyes fill up with tears and all his confidence goes.(not that he has too much in the first place).
Personally when I correct him I will always say why we do things in a different way for example Lets leave the door open so all the other people can walk through it. of course this sometimes leads to the answer of NO but I find that the best way, the problem is other people (again). It can ruin a really great day out because he holds on to this feeling for so long.

Do you punish him when he says the bad words or insulting comments such as "child murderer"?  I would punish the child somehow (nonviolently) and then, afterwards sit him down and talk with him about what he did wrong, ask if he knows why he got punished, is he sorry, does he understand why this is unacceptable, and then seal it off by resolving the incident with a hug or words, to let him know that this discussion is over and finished.

If he talks about negative things and suicide, you could tell him that you don't want to hear about that, in a very matter of fact way, that suicide is not an accpetable option or discussion topic. I  have a son who says things like this too...and I know he gets depressed because the social part of school is very hard for him, but suicide is just not a viable option!!

And when he is not depressed or in his "woe is me" mode, point out lots of good things about him, what he does that's great, etc (or, positive and fun things to think about that he is interested in). Then if he starts to begin to get blue, you can maybe squelch it before it starts by using the positive reinforcement. See, here is the thing: he needs to learn and integrate into his skills, ways to deal with depression. Kids do not have as many skills and resources in this area as we do, that's why everything hurts more.

With me, when I get depressed, I replay like a movie all the stupid or embarrassing or humiliating incidents that I've done, and I punish myself for them....it's horrible. I hardly do this at all anymore, but it's sort of hard to deal with if you never forget and are constantly in mind of such things. A person's mind can become used to or in the routine of obsessing over such things, so that you are *always* depressed to some degree. It is like breaking a new trail or road in the woods, it is easier to use the old one full of mudslides and potholes and danger than it is to make the new one...but the new one needs to be made. If you use the new trail or road several times, a habit begins to form and soon the old one becomes less used and finally all but abandoned. If he would understand this you could draw a picture of a good road to be built and a bad one full of scary and dangerous things, and tell him that this is how he thinks now, but he needs to make a new road in his mind, and the more he uses it, the easier it will be.

Sibylle: do they have a Waldorf or Rudolf Steiner school anywhere near you? This is where I am going to send my son who is aspie.

I have been thinking a long time about this.  

Try praising your son and complimenting him when he does a good job or behaves well.  If he is craving your love and attention, he might be doing all the self-pity routine to get it.  It just annoys you, you ignore him and then he feels even more angry and frustrated.

If he does wrong, then you can talk to him about it and why he couldn't control himself.  He has to learn that he can be in control of his actions and attitudes.  Having feelings is never wrong it is only our actions and attitudes that can be wrong.  To help him feel in control, give him choices.  For example:  ask him "Would you like to stop screaming and stay in the store for ice cream or would you like to go sit in the car and calm down?"  So really then he is learning to be in charge of his actions.  So then sitting in the car is not a punishment for screaming, it is his choice to control himself.  So as the child is not stupid he might begin to think that the ice cream deal is much better.  Of course, if he chooses to sit in the car, you will have to go with him and feel like you are being punished.  And don't ignore him until he has a tantrum.  You know more about him than anyone else and what triggers his frustration or anger.  

My brother-in-law uses the choice method on his kids all the time.  Even when my neice was 3 yrs old she understood.  She knew the rules and they were explained to her.  The rules were simple and consistent.  People would tell me "How can she understand? she is too young"  but I knew she could do it.  If your son can understand a few simple rules, then start there.  

I have the rules posted up in my S.S. class and we read them over every so often.  So sometimes there is a choice to either sit down with everyone else or you can stand facing the corner.  The corner is rather boring.  So after about 3 minutes I can ask them would they like to stay there or join everyone else.  They don't feel shamed because they are in control.  I don't think I am really being mean because they get a few reminders before I will give them the choice.  It also helps me from getting too angry and frustrated as well.

I don't honest think you should punish your son for somethings that he can't help doing or too much at once.  You know your son best.  Be firm and be consistent.  

I have heard about some parents removing everything from their child's room except the bed:  all toys, books.   So if he is going to his room then it is going to be really boring.  This however might just be too much for him.  If you do punish him by sending him to his room just do it for about 15 minutes and then go and ask him about why he was sent there, about the rules and what he chooses to do.

On the positive praise side, you could also ask him to tell you five things that he did that were good or made him happy everyday when he comes home.  When he can give you five, he can get a sticker.  If he gets a week or months worth, he will earn a treat.  That way, he has to find something good about himself everyday.  

You can still listen to the bad but don't really make a big deal of small errors.  Like if he spills his milk, so well, let's get a cloth and wipe it up.  So we learn to handle the problems and you can praise him for doing a good job cleaning up.

He can change his attitude but you will have to change yours abit too.

We learn somewhat how to be parents from our parents.  That is by the way that our parents treated us.   I met one man who told me he never felt his father loved him because his father never told him.  He said his father was always writing him little notes even while they were living in the same house.  This seemed strange.  Then on further discussion we discovered that his grandmother was deaf and didn't speak well.  She always wrote her children little notes.  His father was only copying what his mother had done for him.  

I also have some difficulty with understanding that people might be cross when they are around me.  I often think they might be cross at me and I am source of their problems.  I find myself asking my husband if he loves me, even several times a day.  Of course, I should know the answer but I like to hear it.  I try to make a habit of greeting him when he comes home and kissing him and showing affection and attention.  He really doesn't like to come home to a cranky and unhappy wife.  He does care about my problems and will listen.  He needs some time to wind down first.  

So sometimes we might have to make an effort to communicate in some other means:  notes tucked into lunches, little surprises and presents,  make an effort to express love in words and gestures.  I think that  expression of love in that way makes it more comfortable for people to understand our need for being alone doesn't mean anger.