05-24-2005, 08:58 PM
06-03-2005, 12:23 PM
I watched the programme and was dismayed to see that the pupils were told that there problems we all caused by autism.
The headmistress said that its important to tell the children that autism is the cause of their problems and they seemed to really focus on that.
However, as autism is part of the child, and something that they will always have, it was a negative approach I felt. The children seemed to get no positive messages about who they are, and have no positive role models who are autistic.
I think a more positive approach could make all the difference to the children/young adults self esteem.
When one girl was asked what was bothering her by a teacher, she wrote on a piece of paper in big letters 'AUTISM!'
But to me, that is like being told that if I have period problems that it is because I am a woman, and if I can't find a bra to fit me, its because I am a woman, and so on.
I can't change who I am, and that negativity can lead to self hatred.
I intend to email the headmistress of the school to politely explain my viewpoint and suggest that having more positive talks with the children could raise their self esteem, and providing positive role models can help.
At least I can try.
The headmistress said that its important to tell the children that autism is the cause of their problems and they seemed to really focus on that.
However, as autism is part of the child, and something that they will always have, it was a negative approach I felt. The children seemed to get no positive messages about who they are, and have no positive role models who are autistic.
I think a more positive approach could make all the difference to the children/young adults self esteem.
When one girl was asked what was bothering her by a teacher, she wrote on a piece of paper in big letters 'AUTISM!'
But to me, that is like being told that if I have period problems that it is because I am a woman, and if I can't find a bra to fit me, its because I am a woman, and so on.
I can't change who I am, and that negativity can lead to self hatred.
I intend to email the headmistress of the school to politely explain my viewpoint and suggest that having more positive talks with the children could raise their self esteem, and providing positive role models can help.
At least I can try.
06-03-2005, 12:34 PM
I was very annoyed with the display of violence - they seemed to choose children who acted in a violent way and then blamed this violence on autism. This makes me worry a lot about the public image of autistics that is being painted.
Suppose the only time you saw black people on the TV showed them as violent and agressive - how long would it be before we had public outrage?
Another thing i noticed was the level of frustration, most of which came from being told "it's because of your autism". I recall seeing a more subtle form of this in a special school i once visited and gave a presentation on AFF. There was not a single student there who had considered the positive traits from what i saw.
Suppose the only time you saw black people on the TV showed them as violent and agressive - how long would it be before we had public outrage?
Another thing i noticed was the level of frustration, most of which came from being told "it's because of your autism". I recall seeing a more subtle form of this in a special school i once visited and gave a presentation on AFF. There was not a single student there who had considered the positive traits from what i saw.
06-03-2005, 02:59 PM
Well I have e-mailed the headmistress of the school to describe some more positive methods that could be used.
06-03-2005, 06:09 PM
While watching I was thinking of how Schafer and his ilk would think of the fact that all those pupils shown were high functioning, yet clearly they had great difficulties with behaviour, and needed one-to-one support.
Far from AS being a blanket dx for those who all are pretty much NT with a few social problems, as Schafer likes to stress when telling us that we have no right to comment on autism, indeed if we can talk at all we are far too able to even understand 'real autism'.
This documentary showed that we are very different from NTs and deserve to have that acknowledgement and our differences respected.
Also it was clear that those who suggest that a cure for autism would never be used on those who are high functioning or have an aspergers diagnose are very, very wrong.
I think that the title of 'Make me normal' would cause a big reaction from curebies in the US too. This documentary will do the rounds and at some point will also be show in the US and Australia, Canada etc, as other documentaries have done.
Far from AS being a blanket dx for those who all are pretty much NT with a few social problems, as Schafer likes to stress when telling us that we have no right to comment on autism, indeed if we can talk at all we are far too able to even understand 'real autism'.
This documentary showed that we are very different from NTs and deserve to have that acknowledgement and our differences respected.
Also it was clear that those who suggest that a cure for autism would never be used on those who are high functioning or have an aspergers diagnose are very, very wrong.
I think that the title of 'Make me normal' would cause a big reaction from curebies in the US too. This documentary will do the rounds and at some point will also be show in the US and Australia, Canada etc, as other documentaries have done.
06-03-2005, 07:52 PM
Its hard to estimate how many young adults will have the chance to have positive experiences enough to change their views, I can imagine many in the situation of having negativity in school and going home to parents who have not had a positive notion either, and the negativity being reinforced.
And its a shame that so many of us have to reach adulthood before having the chance to feel less shame about being different, weird, geek, freak, etc.
And its a shame that so many of us have to reach adulthood before having the chance to feel less shame about being different, weird, geek, freak, etc.
06-03-2005, 09:51 PM
I have that book too! And I was lucky to get to meet and discuss various issues with Pat herself.
06-06-2005, 01:06 PM
Hi Saucecode, I think that you may have misunderstood some of the things that I said.
"I'm sure the pupils were told many things during the course of the filming."
It was not that the Headmistress said this to the children during the course of the filming, she said that it was explained to each child when they started school there.
"As the program was about autism, I found no problem with the headmistress' making it clear what the *major* cause of their problems stemmed from. At first, Moneer didn't want to acknowledge that he had AS and this being the reason he was at Spa School for autistics."
I do have a problem with their approach as I have had experience of numerous schools that cater for those with autism, and none of those have used this apporach.
"If the program is about autism, how much sense would it make to tell them their problems are caused by bad parents, teachers, documentary makers, TV channels etc?"
They weren't telling the children about their autism for the programme, they were telling the childrne about it regularly as part of their experience at the school.
"Amy, when you were that age, what difference do you think a positive role model would have made? Would you have comprehend why you were being made to spend time with some stranger because they are autistic, and probably good at something you had no interest in?"
That is not what I meant by role model, and I don't think that is what people normally think of as a role model. You are talking about a peer, or something similar. I was talking about role models, that are taught to the children as good examples. For instance, many NT children use David Beckham as a role model, they wear similar clothes and have their hair in the same fashion. The children at the school could be shown positive autistic role models, what they have achieved, how they have coped with trials in their life. Stephen Spielberg, Gary Numan, Dan Ackroyd, Luke Jackson, various others could be talked about in a lesson, as I got the impression that the children were faced every day with the negatives of autism without the positives.
"Autism is like you describe being a woman, in that you were born that way but there are also differences. You wrote, "period problems" - I am certain 99.9% of woman have periods but perhaps there are women who do not have period *problems*."
There must be very few women who never ever have a period problem, indeed I have never met or heard of one to be honest. During a lifetime there will be problems somehow.
"Also there are woman born who do not have AS, and they may have other (or even similar) problems caused by being a woman. In their case an aversion to man-made fibres may be a quirk of fate and not caused by having AS. In your case they may be inextricably linked.
So if a woman is complaining that bras do not fit her because she is AS, but something in her having AS means she is not trying on the *right size* bra, then it is germane to inform her that perhaps "AS" is getting in the way of finding a bra to fit."
I think you are missing the point of what I was saying, AS has nothing to do with bras, it was an example.
"I'm sure the pupils were told many things during the course of the filming."
It was not that the Headmistress said this to the children during the course of the filming, she said that it was explained to each child when they started school there.
"As the program was about autism, I found no problem with the headmistress' making it clear what the *major* cause of their problems stemmed from. At first, Moneer didn't want to acknowledge that he had AS and this being the reason he was at Spa School for autistics."
I do have a problem with their approach as I have had experience of numerous schools that cater for those with autism, and none of those have used this apporach.
"If the program is about autism, how much sense would it make to tell them their problems are caused by bad parents, teachers, documentary makers, TV channels etc?"
They weren't telling the children about their autism for the programme, they were telling the childrne about it regularly as part of their experience at the school.
"Amy, when you were that age, what difference do you think a positive role model would have made? Would you have comprehend why you were being made to spend time with some stranger because they are autistic, and probably good at something you had no interest in?"
That is not what I meant by role model, and I don't think that is what people normally think of as a role model. You are talking about a peer, or something similar. I was talking about role models, that are taught to the children as good examples. For instance, many NT children use David Beckham as a role model, they wear similar clothes and have their hair in the same fashion. The children at the school could be shown positive autistic role models, what they have achieved, how they have coped with trials in their life. Stephen Spielberg, Gary Numan, Dan Ackroyd, Luke Jackson, various others could be talked about in a lesson, as I got the impression that the children were faced every day with the negatives of autism without the positives.
"Autism is like you describe being a woman, in that you were born that way but there are also differences. You wrote, "period problems" - I am certain 99.9% of woman have periods but perhaps there are women who do not have period *problems*."
There must be very few women who never ever have a period problem, indeed I have never met or heard of one to be honest. During a lifetime there will be problems somehow.
"Also there are woman born who do not have AS, and they may have other (or even similar) problems caused by being a woman. In their case an aversion to man-made fibres may be a quirk of fate and not caused by having AS. In your case they may be inextricably linked.
So if a woman is complaining that bras do not fit her because she is AS, but something in her having AS means she is not trying on the *right size* bra, then it is germane to inform her that perhaps "AS" is getting in the way of finding a bra to fit."
I think you are missing the point of what I was saying, AS has nothing to do with bras, it was an example.
06-06-2005, 01:46 PM
This is the response that I have had today from Jude Ragan, the Headmistress of Spa School. As I posted before I e-mailed her politely asking about positive examples for the pupils, and giving some suggestions.
"Amy, I am not at all offended by your suggestions. An hour long film,
no matter how good, can only be a snapshot of what goes on, and yes, we
do spend the vast majority of our time praising the positives of our
students. However, whatever we do with them is a long-term strategy
(they are here for 7 years. When they come to us they are often
despairing, sometime suicidal, and we have to find a way to repair their
self-esteem if we can. We do this by teling them about their autism,
explaining that their behaviours are due to a lack of understanding,
ghelping tyhem to realise they are not mad or bad. Alongside this, we
tell them all the good things about themselves (and believe me , we are
extremely good at finding any good bits) but we also tell them that the
bad behaviours are unacceptable and that we wuill help them to find
stress busting techniques that are more acceptable. I think that the
film does show aspects of this, and that it is clear to see that from
the place that Moneer and Roxanne are, youngeters like Roy and Esther
have made huge progress 6 years on. Jude"
"Amy, I am not at all offended by your suggestions. An hour long film,
no matter how good, can only be a snapshot of what goes on, and yes, we
do spend the vast majority of our time praising the positives of our
students. However, whatever we do with them is a long-term strategy
(they are here for 7 years. When they come to us they are often
despairing, sometime suicidal, and we have to find a way to repair their
self-esteem if we can. We do this by teling them about their autism,
explaining that their behaviours are due to a lack of understanding,
ghelping tyhem to realise they are not mad or bad. Alongside this, we
tell them all the good things about themselves (and believe me , we are
extremely good at finding any good bits) but we also tell them that the
bad behaviours are unacceptable and that we wuill help them to find
stress busting techniques that are more acceptable. I think that the
film does show aspects of this, and that it is clear to see that from
the place that Moneer and Roxanne are, youngeters like Roy and Esther
have made huge progress 6 years on. Jude"
06-07-2005, 10:52 AM
Hi Saucecode, still feel there is miscommunication and couldn't really understand your points :?
"You said "Perhaps, I did not describe the stranger well enough, but I meant an older person who has lived a bit of life. Mentor being older, peer being roughly same age.
What do you know about how the famous examples you listed, coped with autism?"
The autism role models could be the same age. The could be role models who were peers, such as Luke Jackson who is 16, I described in detail to Jude how his life would be a great example for many reasons to her autistic pupils.
I know quite a lot of how those people coped, having met two of them, Luke and Gary Numan, Luke has written and book that describes his life in detail and Gary Numan has done interviews, and also expressed himself well through music.
Anyone can watch a Spielberg and Ackroyd film and get a taste of their skill.
"You said "Perhaps, I did not describe the stranger well enough, but I meant an older person who has lived a bit of life. Mentor being older, peer being roughly same age.
What do you know about how the famous examples you listed, coped with autism?"
The autism role models could be the same age. The could be role models who were peers, such as Luke Jackson who is 16, I described in detail to Jude how his life would be a great example for many reasons to her autistic pupils.
I know quite a lot of how those people coped, having met two of them, Luke and Gary Numan, Luke has written and book that describes his life in detail and Gary Numan has done interviews, and also expressed himself well through music.
Anyone can watch a Spielberg and Ackroyd film and get a taste of their skill.
06-07-2005, 11:44 AM
This is a discussionon the channel 4 website -
http://community.channel4.com/eve/ubb.x/...7090035812
http://community.channel4.com/eve/ubb.x/...7090035812
06-08-2005, 11:58 AM
As far as my opinion on Make Me Normal, I saw what was there and formed an opinion on it, like anyone else can. Simple as that.
06-08-2005, 03:40 PM
I posted her response on either the 2nd or 1st page of this thread.
06-09-2005, 11:14 AM
My feelings on the documentary were not based any expectations that I had before hand. I didn't even know it was based on a school, or where that school was. I only knew the title.
I saw it, and based my opinion on that.
Kevin makes some excellent points, I have seen very similar feelings on other forums, and this leads me to believe that many people share the same views. I have seen many more sharing the views that it was giving the pupils a negative message, than it was a good documentary and accurate.
Lili's point on pessismism is true in that the pupils really did seem to be getting that message, that would lead to self blame.
I saw it, and based my opinion on that.
Kevin makes some excellent points, I have seen very similar feelings on other forums, and this leads me to believe that many people share the same views. I have seen many more sharing the views that it was giving the pupils a negative message, than it was a good documentary and accurate.
Lili's point on pessismism is true in that the pupils really did seem to be getting that message, that would lead to self blame.
06-10-2005, 11:46 AM
I will email her, I don't wish to give permission for quotes from the thread being used in a magazine, as they will be utterly out of context with the other posts, and many are responsive posts. If it was online a link could be provided and people could easily see the context and meaning in situ.
This magazine sounds an offline effort and it would be easy to misinterpret the meaning of posts, or portions thereof.
I will ask her if she has any specific questions that we could answer, and give an opinion of the show as a whole.
I am only speaking for Gareth and myself here, if Brightman and colrev wished to contact her, of course, that is up to them.
This magazine sounds an offline effort and it would be easy to misinterpret the meaning of posts, or portions thereof.
I will ask her if she has any specific questions that we could answer, and give an opinion of the show as a whole.
I am only speaking for Gareth and myself here, if Brightman and colrev wished to contact her, of course, that is up to them.