07-21-2008, 08:25 AM
07-21-2008, 09:50 AM
Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:
quickduck Wrote:
hyke Wrote:
In a crying mood today.
I hate suicides. Especially that young, provoked, having not experienced joy and safety in life. I hate it.
I hate suicides. Especially that young, provoked, having not experienced joy and safety in life. I hate it.
Suicide is the most horrible way to end a life; death from old age, an accident, disease, even murder are expected and not something we can really control. But to choose to end your life; because the pain becomes so unbearable; because no one cares is incredibly sad and hard to accept.
That is why we should all fight to stop bullying in all its forms - whether child-on-child, adult-on-child, or adult-on-adult; whatever the excuse the bully uses:
"They are different"
"They are weird"
"The bible/koran/DSM-IV/some TV/radio show says they are sinners/evil/diseased/disordered/a bad influence"
"I can do what I like to my own child/spouse".
Sometimes it takes all the love a friend or family member can give to pull someone back from the brink, and sometimes even that isn't enough.
A hell of a job. Certainly when it's done for years. You'll never know if it is enough. In the end the lust for life needs to come from oneself again. Miracles like that do happen.
07-21-2008, 04:17 PM
Shrek Wrote:
It would be easy to relate to someone who wasn't a Christian. I was there myself and I thought these people are really hands on. But I am not able to make homosexuality work with Christianity in my mind, and this has gotten in between me and some of the others before.
And I can't understand why you can't.
You don't need to understand gay love. Just accept that it exists. There is so much beyond your understanding. Gay love is. And the love of God too. The last is beyond all our understanding.
07-21-2008, 07:17 PM
DogBrain Wrote:
Max the Bear Wrote:
Wow -- yes. Exactly. "I can't be racist, because I am a Very Good Person, and very good people are not racist."
This attitude to which you refer comes a particularly stupid sort of indoctrination that we all have had inflicted upon us. To wit, "A bad person is anyone who does bad things, because good people cannot do bad things."
So, it's more than just a question of self image, for most people, it is a matter of completely rebuilding their entire moral compass. That is, they have to admit--not just give lip service--to the fact that good people can do bad things.
That's a terrifying prospect for most people, because it means that they aren't allowed to dismiss anyone who has been rude to them or otherwise not been sweetness and light. Really embracing a morality that allows for the good to err means that you cannot just write off large chunks of the world as "evil", or "stupid", or "rednecks", or "immoral".
Quote:
The problem comes when someone outside the group challenges the prejudice. Immediately, there is a call to battle stations and the Outsider becomes The Enemy.
I've been reading some stuff by non-white feminists, lately on how they get treated by the feminist establishment. I'd have to say that you outline a very common response, no matter where one is on the political spectrum.
Very true.
I want to react but words fail.
07-21-2008, 07:45 PM
ocampo Wrote:
What I've never got my head around is with so much hatred, anger and the general bullshit that comes with the entire human race, why would anyone have a problem with love? I've never understood the total sexualisation of LGB individuals. We do a lot more than just have sex, you know. Some of us have been known to hold down jobs and go to university.
What if we did not talk about 'straight' for a while but about heteroSEXUAL 
07-26-2008, 09:11 PM
Max the Bear Wrote:
Brightman Wrote:
Max wrote:
Why would being gay keep someone from being fair and impartial?
In the eyes of some it might, and that is something I was hoping to avoid. I still do hope that people won't be prejudiced against me for it even in the light of trying to moderate a controversial topic. I don't want people to think I am unfairly taking sides simply because of my own disposition.
Why would being gay keep someone from being fair and impartial?
In the eyes of some it might, and that is something I was hoping to avoid. I still do hope that people won't be prejudiced against me for it even in the light of trying to moderate a controversial topic. I don't want people to think I am unfairly taking sides simply because of my own disposition.
So because of your own fear of a homophobic reaction, you tolerated and made excuses for a homophobe and left me, earth monkey, natalie and ocampo to deal with it, and then you viciously attacked the gay person who called you on it, all from the timid confines of your closet.
And somebody using the word 'fudgepacker" is not remotely "controversial." It's simply wrong. You bent over backwards to create a gray area where there was none. So you were unfair and you were partisan.
I can't say I don't understand where you're coming from. There was a time in my life when I would have done the same thing. But I would have been wrong then, and you are wrong now.
Brightman,
In a way I do understand you. But a bit more confidence in yourself is appropriate.
I don't think you would have been invited to moderate if you were a biased person. You being gay was no problem. I think it is a pitty that you felt that it might be a problem. EvilZakkie, Gareth and Amy are in straight relationships. No-one thinks they are biased.
Reacting strongly on homophobic posts will be appropriate. No matter if your gay or straight. If someone would then state that you did that because you are gay the forum and the administrators will be backing you.
You are gay. No doubt you will have been treated bad because of that. That maybe did make you cautious. Cautious even to speak up here. I'm sorry if that is the case.
If people question your judgement on AFF, people question your judgement on AFF.
If people question your judgement on AFF because of your sexual orientation, they are in the wrong. And I think you can trust this forum to jump on that. You will be backed up.
You've been made a moderator. That means people have trust in your capability to judge as impartial as possible. No matter what your color is, your gender, your sexual orientation, your age etc. Your coming out will not change that.
Trust yourself, trust the other mods and admins and trust this forum.
07-27-2008, 09:14 PM
Shrek Wrote:
Mahler5 Wrote:
Great post, Hyke
Quote:
If people question your judgement on AFF, people question your judgement on AFF.
If people question your judgement on AFF because of your sexual orientation, they are in the wrong. And I think you can trust this forum to jump on that.
You will be backed up.
If people question your judgement on AFF because of your sexual orientation, they are in the wrong. And I think you can trust this forum to jump on that.
You will be backed up.
completely 
One exception: I don't stay silent when somebody needs backing up.
? pink on purpose
07-27-2008, 09:17 PM
I walked over a graveyard with my daughters. Looking for the place my little nephew lies. There were lots of graves. Also two graves with a david star, date november 1944.
I had to look further on the net and found an article about an exhibition covering gays in WWII.
One paragraph I just need to quote. I'll translate it aswell.
The exhibition is called "WIE KAN IK NOG VERTROUWEN?" (WHO CAN I STILL TRUST?)
Name of the article : "Musea en archieven negeren homogeschiedenis" (Musea and archives ignore gay history)
By Klaus Müller
I had to look further on the net and found an article about an exhibition covering gays in WWII.
One paragraph I just need to quote. I'll translate it aswell.
The exhibition is called "WIE KAN IK NOG VERTROUWEN?" (WHO CAN I STILL TRUST?)
Name of the article : "Musea en archieven negeren homogeschiedenis" (Musea and archives ignore gay history)
By Klaus Müller
Quote:
Dit gebrek is vooral te wijten aan een hardnekkig vooroordeel. Homoseksualiteit wordt nog steeds gereduceerd tot een geschiedenis van seksualiteit en identiteit. Terwijl het begrepen en bestudeerd zou moeten worden als deel van een complexe sociale geschiedenis. De levens van lesbische vrouwen en homoseksuele mannen in de twintigste eeuw zijn niet zozeer gekenmerkt door hun seksuele gedrag, maar door hun maatschappelijke, medische, juridische en symbolische uitsluiting door de samenleving.
Homogeschiedenis is dus Nederlandse geschiedenis tot in de haarvaten. Het is een wezenlijk deel van het historische zelfbeeld van de gehele samenleving. Maar als dat zo is, waarom vinden wij er dan zo weinig over in onze musea en archieven?
Homogeschiedenis is dus Nederlandse geschiedenis tot in de haarvaten. Het is een wezenlijk deel van het historische zelfbeeld van de gehele samenleving. Maar als dat zo is, waarom vinden wij er dan zo weinig over in onze musea en archieven?
Quote:
This lack is due to a longlasting predjudice. Homosexuality still is being reduced to a history of sexuality and identity. But it should be understood and studied as a part of a complex social history. The lives of lesbian women and homosexual men in the twentieth century are not marked by their sexual behaviour, but by their social, medical, legal and symbolic exclusion by society.
So Gayhistory is Dutch history till the capilary blood vessels (till the bone). It is a existential part of the historical self-image of the total society. But if that is the case, why do we find so little about it in our musea and archives?
So Gayhistory is Dutch history till the capilary blood vessels (till the bone). It is a existential part of the historical self-image of the total society. But if that is the case, why do we find so little about it in our musea and archives?
07-27-2008, 09:19 PM
Mahler5 Wrote:
phew*- I thought it was just me to think ???? I thought maybe I needed more sleep or something....which I do, but still...
Glad you're awake too 
07-27-2008, 09:23 PM
I talked with my daughters about the graves and percecution because of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation. My daughters know the latter exists. One quite academically. The youngest because she has been scolded allready. Just because she wants to marry a girl. The pain is allready felt, she's only 7. She might love a guy or a girl. But she has allready experienced some of the negative response she will have if she does date a girl later.
07-27-2008, 09:27 PM
Max the Bear Wrote:
hyke Wrote:
Quote:
This lack is due to a longlasting predjudice. Homosexuality still is being reduced to a history of sexuality and identity. But it should be understood and studied as a part of a complex social history. The lives of lesbian women and homosexual men in the twentieth century are not marked by their sexual behaviour, but by their social, medical, legal and symbolic exclusion by society.
So Gayhistory is Dutch history till the capilary blood vessels (till the bone). It is a existential part of the historical self-image of the total society. But if that is the case, why do we find so little about it in our musea and archives?
So Gayhistory is Dutch history till the capilary blood vessels (till the bone). It is a existential part of the historical self-image of the total society. But if that is the case, why do we find so little about it in our musea and archives?
Brilliant. Absolutely true and beautifully said.
(and just for the record, Shreck's post made no sense to me, either.)
I have to admit that I don't think I want to understand.....
07-27-2008, 09:45 PM
The triangle was pink. It is a more known symbol here than the 6 colored rainbow.
Gay Pride Day is called Roze Zaterdag in dutch (Pink Saturday)
Gay Pride Day is called Roze Zaterdag in dutch (Pink Saturday)
07-27-2008, 09:47 PM
ocampo Wrote:
The 'black triangle' is sometimes used to reflect the murder of LGBT individuals by the Nazis, but according to its Wiki page, its also worn by some lesbians for other anti-discrimination reasons. I've never seen it, and I've been always under the impression that its to represent the LGBT people persecuted throughout the reign of Nazism.
Rohm was gay, but murdered before Hitler went really crazy - by international standards, not mine.
Ok, maybe I've got it wrong, it was a pink triangle according to Wiki. Worn by gay inmates of concentration camps in the same way as the yellow star was worn by Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_..._Holocaust
I didn't know this existed last time I was in Amsterdam, but I plan to make a point of it next time I visit. Beautiful city, it was the most refreshing experience for a young woman beginning to reject her Catholicism and socialisation of homophobia towards her own homosexuality. I never went anywhere gay in Amsterdam, but it did open my eyes a LOT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ac.homomonument.jpg
^^^ It doesn't want to post the image, but there's the URL to a memorial.
Rohm was gay, but murdered before Hitler went really crazy - by international standards, not mine.
Ok, maybe I've got it wrong, it was a pink triangle according to Wiki. Worn by gay inmates of concentration camps in the same way as the yellow star was worn by Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_..._Holocaust
I didn't know this existed last time I was in Amsterdam, but I plan to make a point of it next time I visit. Beautiful city, it was the most refreshing experience for a young woman beginning to reject her Catholicism and socialisation of homophobia towards her own homosexuality. I never went anywhere gay in Amsterdam, but it did open my eyes a LOT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ac.homomonument.jpg
^^^ It doesn't want to post the image, but there's the URL to a memorial.
If you go to Amsterdam and would like to meet me I might come too.
Just let me know. It's been way to long that I've been there.
07-27-2008, 10:02 PM
Shrek Wrote:
One exception: I don't stay silent when somebody needs backing up.
The 'one exception' does make this a very strange sentense Shrek. And 'sometimes' your consoling support is hurtful.
This has to do with the strange split within you of christian and decent citizen. I sort of know that you really mean well. But trust me it often comes as a blow.
I can imagine that your opinions will do some good within your denomination. You probably are enlightened there. And that is needed. But your remarks here often are painful. The split within you makes that you probably are a source of comfort for the gay man sitting next to you in the church and a source of pain here. I hope someday you will realise that.
07-27-2008, 10:03 PM
ocampo Wrote:
Definitely Hyke, its been 8 years since I was in Amsterdam. Can't wait to go back a little less easily shocked! lol
NICE 