Aspies For Freedom

I just came on to put my account on away.  My husband is off and we are going to the beach. (with our three kids - anyone have experience with how much time, brain power and energy kids 11, 9, and 8, and a husband etc., consume and still not understand that I am doing my best?)

Who knows how things are taken if someone Pm's me or inquires on a thread and I don't respond.  So, I had 3 PM's and checked out the Bar area where grumpy is serving drinks... the last couple of posts talked about illusion etc.,

I have heard there were  people "deny" the holocaust. My G*d, that is very wrong, if it is denied it can repeat. If illusion is one of them, this is not the forum for him.  He should be banned.  Perhaps, a questionnaire on other forum group memberships should be given, with hate groups in a couple categories not allowed... or a read this : rules, and sign here ?
Or a "provisional" license to browse and not post in all but a few categories when someone is new, to learn the lingo, or the culture (of AFF)?

I am not going to look up those links, it would be too sad and I don't give those types of sites any traffic.

I am guilty of thinking that people should be given the benefit of the doubt, and for feeling that people should have the freedom to learn understanding by feeling understanding. On a foorum, and this is my first forum, I am not "vetting" people, I am taking them as they come.

Who knows the age or country of origin, how others come by their ideas and prejudices or bias and how set in them they are? If any of those above accounts are true - though I was brought up to believe nothing that I hear and barely half of what I see. It seems you guys who were looking for the dark and found it.  That is not a skill that I would like to hone.
I am not ashamed for my so called "support". I did not support or make friends with illusion, I did not ever myself in real or forum conduct treat anyone with prejudice.  But I also did not kick "someone" when he was in the minority.  Equal treatment for all.  I am for freedom and against, being against.
Got to go.
ANd my suggestion for forum help and suggestions, is that when someone puts together 100 words or a thousand, we should all try not to take one sentence out of it and shred it.  No ones words on here canhold up to that kind of scrutiny.  I say that becasue aspies for freedom, as a forum, needs to go back to being open to the fact that people communicate in different ways. AND people are fallible.

Freedom is my aim, for all.  And yes, Particularly for those on the spectrum, BECAUSE they are in the minority and the minority can get shouted out or steamrolled.  It happens all the time.

The Nuerumberg Defence, been used successfully by fools the world over since 1946.

I'm not going to be nice to everybody. If you're going to start your forum career by claiming your hate should be tolerated and accepted as unconventional or controversial, I'm going to start replying that you're a hatemonger and get the hell out.

If you're just a little blunt or hard to follow, I'll give you more time to work out your typing style. In one person's case, I finally came down on him when it became clear no amount of explaining was going to disabuse him of his notion that being rude to people about their beliefs was reasonable.

In your case in particular, I let you know that I was having a hard time following some of your posts, and I disagreed with your apparent support of someone whose views you seemed to be unaware of. Your posts have gotten clearer and your appreciation of who Illusion is seems more informed. I will continue to give you the benefit of the doubt as you seem to be a person who is willing to listen. The other two are stuck in unacceptable positions, and I have no tolerance for their BS.

I want to go to the beach!

When on a forum, the only thing that you are able to use as a tool to understand other people are their words.  Nothing more than that.

Due to that fact, it is very important that words are chosen carefully.  That people post carefully, and take the extra time needed to make sure that their posts are clear, and easy to understand.  While I am sure this is not a "requirement" to post, it is my opinion, and only my opinion, that this is how we should all operate.

If you do take the time to make sure that posts are clear and well-written, to the best of your ability, many questions will not need to even be asked.  If you respond to people when they ask questions of you, and respond as directly as asked, people will not need to ask twice.  No one will be accused of being unresponsive.

If people are spared hints, or innuendo, and people are straightforward and honest, there will not be question of people's intent.  It will all be spelled out right in front of you.  In clear and easy to understand words.

When you place words on a forum for 10,000 people to read them, you should expect that they will be examined.  You should expect that people will give their opinions and thoughts.  If you did not want that to happen, why would you post your thoughts on a forum with 10,000 members.

People will remove parts from posts and respond to them.  Why post the whole thing again, when you are only responding to one part.  That makes no sense and clogs up the forum.

People are fallible.  All people communicate differently.  I think that everyone here understands that.

But no one here will tolerate hate speech.  No one here will be friendly and accepting of people who come on here, and repeatedly post hateful things.  It just will not happen.  And it should not.

The forum is for people on the spectrum, and their friends, and their family.  If you are going to post here, on the spectrum or not, you should be held to the same standards as anyone else.  Which means, if you are unclear you will be asked to clarify.  If you preach hateful things, you will be asked to cease.  If you are clear, friendly and caring, that will be returned to you.

On an internet forum, ALL WE HAVE ARE YOUR WORDS.

Max the Bear Wrote:

ichtms Wrote:

I had no idea he was such a bad troll. MtB mentioned in a post that Il667 had trawled several sites; I never got around to ask how he knew.

First, let me give you a little insight into The Joys of Dyslexia -- it took me more than a minute to figure out who "MtB" was... Rolleyes

Second, all I did was google Illusion667. It didn't take any advanced detective skills.He's a prolific internet troll and since i apparently posted my findings inappropriately in another thread, perhaps it's better to post them here.

(I don't provide links because I don't want to provide further traffic to most of these sites. If anyone thinks I'm making them up, it's easy enough to google his name just as I did. I'm sure there are more that I missed)

Here's what I found on Google:

Banned from Wikipedia for his Holocaust Denial agenda

Wikipedia personal page included over a dozen inspirational quotes from Mr. Hitler

A google search of his name also turned up a hard-core white supremacist site (that I will NOT link to) that sells books like "100 N***** Jokes" and T-shirts that say "RAHOWA" (racial holy war, white supramacist extremist slogan advocating violence) Looks like he designs Nazi regalia...?

He posts prolifically at Stormfront, the most widely reviled white supremacist crypto-Nazi website in the world. (Wikipedia on Stormfront)

abovetopsecret.com banned him and posted this explanatory  message:
A "revisionist" Nazis [Illusion667] joined recently and began several threads based on grossly incorrect historical references and perspectives. His brand of total and complete ignorance was so insurmountable, there was little choice but to ban him and remove his posts."   Big Grin Tongue Tongue

Prolific posts at assorted Holocaust Denial sites...

Lots of posts at the "Pan Aryan Alliance" -- another white supremacist site

Extensive fanatical defense of Hitler at devientArt before he was kicked out

Lots of Nazi art designs

In his profile at a "Comparative Religion" forum, he lists his religion this way "My beliefs are related to the teachings of Crowley and LaVey [satanists]" and for "political/religious examples" he includes (of course)  Adolf Hitler and Hermann Goering

urgh white supremeists make me sick

actually all types of bigotry does

is Illusion even autistic?

Max the Bear Wrote:

abovetopsecret.com banned him and posted this explanatory message:
A "revisionist" Nazis [Illusion667] joined recently and began several threads based on grossly incorrect historical references and perspectives. His brand of total and complete ignorance was so insurmountable, there was little choice but to ban him and remove his posts." Big Grin

LOL

Ethel Wrote:

And here comes the other argument, WHAT is said versus HOW it's said.

It's wrong for me to tell off a Nazi revisionist stroppily, but OK for GuessWho to tell me, allegedly politely, I'm not saved and going to burn in hell?

Two questions there (and this is answered with my "official" hat on - my personal opinion differs, as you can imagine):

Ethel Wrote:

It's wrong for me to tell off a Nazi revisionist stroppily

Nope, not at all - generally I try to limit personal insults, etc, but in these sorts of cases a bit of leeway is required. It's perfectly natural for people to become annoyed at bigoted posts, and I have no problem with people expressing this annoyance.

The only disclaimer (general disclaimer, this isn't something Ethel's done) I'll add is that it's not okay to respond to bigotry with bigotry - so try to stay away from anti-white statements, using neurological conditions as insults, and similar things.

Ethel Wrote:

...but OK for GuessWho to tell me, allegedly politely, I'm not saved and going to burn in hell?

One of the hardest things to do as a moderator is try to seperate "offensive" from "annoying". As long there's no bigotry involved, those sorts of posts are extremely annoying, but not something that any sort of official action can be taken against. If there is, please report it - there's been some recent developments that mean taking official action has become a much easier prospect...

Also, if it happens often out of context, I'd consider it to be a form of harassment - and that we can also take action against.

That being said, if someone's telling you you'll burn in hell, feel free to respond as stroppily as you like. *grins*

GuessWho Wrote:

Have we decided to blanket ban religious conversion, then? We might as well get that straightened out right away.

As it relates to bigotry, yes. In general, no. But if you tell someone out of context that they're going to hell, expect them to get annoyed about it.

GuessWho Wrote:

Therefore, I logically conclude from this:

1.  No compassion or support for the supremacist to speak or be heard
2.  Forget about "freedom of speech" and "censorship is unAmerican"
3.  Admonish the supremacist always.
4.  The only question is how to admonish the supremacist, what language we are using, if it is overly harsh, uses the word Nazi, other loaded words?
5.  Can we avoid using loaded words and state the position without them?

1) Yes - not on this forum.
2) Freedom of speech does not apply to a privately owned website. And in an international forum, whether or not something's "Un-American" is irrelevant.
3) Only if you want to.
4) I said earlier that I have no problem with people expressing annoyance at bigoted posts as harshly as they like.
5) If you want to, but it's not required.

GuessWho Wrote:

Moderator:

To clarify, the above two "moderator" statements above were the sort of free-association thing GuessWho does from time to time, and the statements in no way resemble any statements made by myself, CouldBe, Gareth, or any other moderator.

Especially as AFF is a British-owned site, so technically so long as no-one insults Lizzie we're all good and still with our heads attached.

Yeah. Else we'll get Prince Charles and his flappy ears about yer.

Max the Bear Wrote:

(I put a parenthesis here, don't know how the roll eyes got here) and for feeling that people should have the freedom to learn understanding by feeling understanding. On a foorum, and this is my first forum, I am not "vetting" people, I am taking them as they come.

You are not at all "taking them as they come." You are taking them [i]as you perceive them. And that is only as accurate as your powers of perception. And as for your "vetting" people, again, you have the luxury of (and a talent for)  remaining oblivious. Many of us do not.

Reply: Yes, I do have the "talent" for remanining oblivious, (you can't beleive how much less oblivious I am now, from many years ago). Did I ever say I have "powers of perception"?  I have long known that I perceive things "differently' than the mainstream. (I was dumb enough to think that people would not be judged for this on AFF)

(Read none of this sarcastically,  I am answering back point by point.  I do give respect and appreciate people taking the time to read what I write.  And I try to be thorough, AND I think in tangents, and I do not have brevity as a skill.  Do you know me at all, hardly anyone on here really knows anyone. My name on here is atypical for a reason.)  My signature lines may give a hint, my profile gives a hint.  everyone should read their signature lines, what are people saying about themselves.  another digression/ : Maya Angelou says, "That when people show you who they are, believe them"

Who knows others come by their ideas and prejudices or bias and how set in them they are?

Reply: people come out of their parents houses only "knowing" what theySome  were told, the world can then "show" them otherwise, with millions of variations. (acceptance, aggression, patience, intolerance, vindictively, malciously, firmly, quietly, supportively, intellectually, condescendingly, with understanding, with biaad, with prejudice, tit for tat, etc., etc., ad nauseum, this shapes a person. Doesn't it?)

Doing so with a reasonable degree of accuracy -- enough to recognize a need for caution -- is not as difficult as you imagine.

Reply: [b]I do better at this in real life.  Words are hard to read, as far as tone.  When I am typing and thinking unemotionally, someone else can be reading it in a different frame of mind. Actions speak to me, words can have many meanings.  I have always been one for semantics.  I do my best.[/b]

color=blue]If any of those above accounts are true [/color]- though I was brought up to believe nothing that I hear and barely half of what I see.

If I read you accurately -- and that is, of course, generally impossible -- you are questioning whether my reports on Illusion667 are "true." Are you serious? You think I made them up? Wow. I find that insulting, but unsurprising. Some people really need to have a house fall on them. (Although, as I recall, that already happened to you in "The Wizard of Oz.")

Reply: [b] The word accuracy, is one of those words that has a whole bunch of meanings.  Accuracy, I love accuracy, I like my words to be accurately understood as much as the next person.  [

No I did not question whether your "reports" are true.  You "vetted", I did not.  You prioritized and took it upon yourself to look things up.  My priorites do not give me that "luxury".  I agree, I have the luxury to say that I don't have the luxury to focus on that one issue. Just because I haven't looked at the face of evil,  does not mean I don't know it exists.  (come to think of it, hitler was the face of evil, US pres/VP, maybe) [/b]It seems you guys who were looking for the dark and found it.  That is not a skill that I would like to hone.

Should I apologize for not being profoundly ignorant and clueless when a Nazi is looking me in the face? I don't think so. The "skill" you refer to involves pulling your head out and perceiving reality. So don't worry, dear. You're in no danger of honing it.

Reply: (

I am not ashamed for my so called "support".

Of course you're not. Nazis and supremacists don't target you. They support you and your way of life. It's up to you as to whether you return that support. see link

Reply: Get a load of yourself, Nazis and supremicists support my way of life? No they do not. [b]"so called" because I never said I support _____.  I support freedoms.  So? Just because some one uses my name and the word support and someones name in a sentence does not mean I did.I did not click on the link.  I do not support bigotry, mob mentality, discrimination.  (some one should look up the word discrimination)

I don't need to be told about Nazi's.  My dad was lucky enough to be born in a German work camp.  My grandparents had their farms burned down (separate farms, they had not met yet). Do you know how many Ukranians were killed in the holocaust? Do you know how the Russians tried to take religion away from my "people"? I am not ignorant on all things.[/b]

I also did not kick "someone" when he was in the minority.

Yes you did. Supremacists target minorities. Any time "you" fail to stand up against supremacy -- as you failed, and proudly so --  you empower them. All they need is for people to stand around like dumb sheep and say "oh, well, i really don't ever know what's actually happening so I just ... uh... do nothing." You don't stop them from kicking minorities. You stand and and watch. And that is dispicable.

Reply:[b] I kicked noone.  I am not dispicable, I do not stand and watch.  The "more" obvious minority was what I saw, here and now, on AFF.  I know what being a minority feels like also.  No one knows what each person has experienced or knows.  You are not the one or ones to judge me by speaking for GENERAL freedom.  Not "accurately" anyway.[/b]

Equal treatment for all.

For Nazis and Jews alike? For gays and gay-bashers alike? For autistics and for those who would abort them? For the poor and for those who would leave them helpless and hungry? Nice philosophy.

Reply: I will not dignify this with a response, Ok, yes I will, just not with the specifics. We helped send my nephew to ACTUALLY help people in the poorest place on the earth- in real life.  Not talk, action.  Being gay or jewish in this day and age, is not awful.  (not inserting specifics on my transgendered "token" friend- with Jewish parents to boot!) Try being thankful for not eating dirt and watching your loved ones killed in front of you.  [/b] Maybe you should get real.

color=blue]I am for freedom and against, being against.[/color]

Freedom to oppress, freedom to exploit, freedom to abuse, freedom to segregate, freedom to exterminate. Against being against Nazis, against being against curebies, against being against mysoginists, against being against racists.

Reply:  This is AFF, 2008. Not Nazi Germany early 20th century.  Oh, I am against those things, Clearly.[/i]Got to go.

'bye.
Bye for now.

ANd my suggestion for forum help and suggestions, is that when someone puts together 100 words or a thousand, we should all try not to take one sentence out of it and shred it.

Then I hope you appreciate the time and effort I put into this line by line response to your post. I doubt many people have spent as much time deciphering and understnading one of your lengthy posts as I have.

I just tried the whole preview post thing for over an hour now.  I can't seem to get the words that I replied with all to bold.  I wanted to bold all the REPLY areas.  I know my mind, no one says you have to know it too.  I know my charecter and my priorities.  I am on AFF to do something useful not deflect charges that I am dispicable. I am not.

No ones words on here canhold up to that kind of scrutiny.  I say that becasue aspies for freedom, as a forum, needs to go back to being open to the fact that people communicate in different ways. AND people are fallible.

Freedom is my aim, for all.  And yes, Particularly for those on the spectrum, BECAUSE they are in the minority and the minority can get shouted out or steamrolled.  It happens all the time.

And THAT is why the minority must be able to and allowed to and supported in and respected for SHOUTING BACK!

[/quote]

atypical Wrote:

Max the Bear Wrote:

Perhaps, a questionnaire on other forum group memberships should be given, with hate groups in a couple categories not allowed

If you learned anything (long pause...) from the Illsusion debacle, it is that the various hatemongers and supremacists are frequently very good at hiding their true intent from people who are basically clueless as to how hate groups work. They certainly wont look at a questionnaire and say " Hmmm.. 'are you a deranged neonazi troll'... ckeck 'yes'..."

reply: If a questionnaire for AFF had those categories - so it was SPECIFICALLY clear that those subjects would not be discussed - very clear, very easy to ban very quickly- looking for clear guidelines- forum suggestion.

I am not going to look up those links, it would be too sad and I don't give those types of sites any traffic.

You don't need to look them up. I did. I did not direct link them because I don't want to send them any traffic. I will say this, though. It is part of your bubble of privilege that you can remain blissfully unaware of the various hate movements burgeoning across the internt and around the world. They are not targeting you.  Some of us need to pay a little more attention.

Reply:You and I are saying the same things here, I am aware that I am less aware.  Some have to pay more attention, to what they need to. Do you not see that we can't all have the same enormous amount of energy invested in every issue? I am a different person.  I have different priorities. With all the "stuff" that goes on, in my house, in my kids 3 different schools, in my town, in my state, in my country, in the US, in the world. That you pay attention to what you need to and I pay attention to what I need to is my "bubble of privelege".  I don't deny that.

I am guilty of thinking that people should be given the benefit of the doubt, and for feeling that people should have the freedom to learn understanding by feeling understanding. On a foorum, and this is my first forum, I am not "vetting" people, I am taking them as they come.

You are not at all "taking them as they come." You are taking them as you perceive them. And that is only as accurate as your powers of perception. And as for your "vetting" people, again, you have the luxury of (and a talent for)  remaining oblivious. Many of us do not.

Reply: [b]Yes, I do have the "talent" or quirk for remanining oblivious, (you can't beleive how much less oblivious I am now, from many years ago). Did I ever say I have "powers of perception"?  I have long known that I perceive things "differently' than the mainstream. (I was dumb enough to think that people would not be judged for this on AFF)

(Read none of this sarcastically,  I am answering back point by point.  I do give respect and appreciate people taking the time to read what I write.  And I try to be thorough, AND I think in tangents, and I do not have brevity as a skill.  Do you know me at all, hardly anyone on here really knows anyone. My name on here is atypical for a reason.)  My signature lines may give a hint, my profile gives a hint.  everyone should read their signature lines, what are people saying about themselves.  another digression/ : Maya Angelou says, "That when people show you who they are, believe them"

Who knows others come by their ideas and prejudices or bias and how set in them they are?

Reply: Gosh, what I mean by that is people come out of their parents houses (schools etc., ) only "knowing" what they were told, the world can then "show" them otherwise, with millions of variations. (acceptance, aggression, patience, intolerance, vindictively, malciously, firmly, quietly, supportively, intellectually, condescendingly, with understanding, with biaad, with prejudice, tit for tat, etc., etc., ad nauseum, this shapes a person. Doesn't it?)

Doing so with a reasonable degree of accuracy -- enough to recognize a need for caution -- is not as difficult as you imagine.

Reply: I do better at this in real life.  Words are hard to read, as far as tone.  When I am typing and thinking unemotionally, someone else can be reading it in a different frame of mind. Actions speak to me, words can have many meanings.  I have always been one for semantics.  I do my best.

color=blue]If any of those above accounts are true [/color]- though I was brought up to believe nothing that I hear and barely half of what I see.

If I read you accurately -- and that is, of course, generally impossible -- you are questioning whether my reports on Illusion667 are "true." Are you serious? You think I made them up? Wow. I find that insulting, but unsurprising. Some people really need to have a house fall on them. (Although, as I recall, that already happened to you in "The Wizard of Oz.")

Reply:  The word accuracy, is one of those words that has a whole bunch of meanings.  Accuracy, I love accuracy, I like my words to be accurately understood as much as the next person.

No I did not question whether your "reports" are true.  You "vetted", I did not.  You prioritized and took it upon yourself to look things up.  My priorites do not give me that "luxury".  I agree, I have the luxury to say that I don't have the luxury to focus on that one issue. Just because I haven't looked at the face of evil,  does not mean I don't know it exists.  (come to think of it, hitler was the face of evil, but I never was on a forum with him and I could not be harmed physically by being on a froum with him.)

[/b]It seems you guys who were looking for the dark and found it.  That is not a skill that I would like to hone.

Should I apologize for not being profoundly ignorant and clueless when a Nazi is looking me in the face? I don't think so. The "skill" you refer to involves pulling your head out and perceiving reality. So don't worry, dear. You're in no danger of honing it.

I am not ashamed for my so called "support".

Of course you're not. Nazis and supremacists don't target you. They support you and your way of life. It's up to you as to whether you return that support. see link

Reply: Get a load of yourself, Nazis and supremicists support my way of life? No they do not. I type "So called" because I never said I supported illusion. or X (fill in the blank)_____.  I support freedoms.  (GENERAL) SO I am guilty of generalizing so that I can function? So? Just because some one uses my name and the word support and someones name in a sentence does not mean I defend X or support X.

I did not click on the link you gave so I don't know what is there. I do not support bigotry, mob mentality, discrimination.  (some one should look up the word discrimination)

I don't need to be told about Nazi's.  My dad was lucky enough to be born in a German work camp.  My grandparents had their farms burned down (separate farms, they had not met yet). Do you know how many Ukranians were killed in the holocaust? Do you know how the Russians tried to take religion away from my "people"? I am not ignorant on all things.

I also did not kick "someone" when he was in the minority.

Yes you did. Supremacists target minorities. Any time "you" fail to stand up against supremacy -- as you failed, and proudly so --  you empower them. All they need is for people to stand around like dumb sheep and say "oh, well, i really don't ever know what's actually happening so I just ... uh... do nothing." You don't stop them from kicking minorities. You stand and and watch. And that is dispicable.

Reply: [b]I kicked noone.  I am not dispicable, I do not stand and watch.  The "more" obvious minority was what I saw, here and now, on AFF.  I know what being a minority feels like also.  No one knows what each person has experienced or knows.  You are not the one or ones to judge me by speaking for GENERAL freedom.  Not "accurately" anyway.

Equal treatment for all.

For Nazis and Jews alike? For gays and gay-bashers alike? For autistics and for those who would abort them? For the poor and for those who would leave them helpless and hungry? Nice philosophy.

Reply: I will not dignify this with a response, Ok, yes I will, just not with the specifics. We helped send my nephew to ACTUALLY help people in the poorest place on the earth- in real life.  Not talk, action.  Being gay or jewish in this day and age, is not awful.  (not inserting specifics on my transgendered "token" friend- with Jewish parents to boot!) Try being thankful for not eating dirt and watching your loved ones killed in front of you.   Maybe you should get real.

color=blue]I am for freedom and against, being against.[/color]

Freedom to oppress, freedom to exploit, freedom to abuse, freedom to segregate, freedom to exterminate. Against being against Nazis, against being against curebies, against being against mysoginists, against being against racists.

Reply:  This is AFF, 2008. Not Nazi Germany early 20th century.  Oh, I am against those things, Clearly.[/i]Got to go.

'bye.
Bye for now.

ANd my suggestion for forum help and suggestions, is that when someone puts together 100 words or a thousand, we should all try not to take one sentence out of it and shred it.

Then I hope you appreciate the time and effort I put into this line by line response to your post. I doubt many people have spent as much time deciphering and understnading one of your lengthy posts as I have.

NEWEST POST 1:45 PM, Thursday, my time.  I read your response to all the work I put in, following your outline and then I am in your words "unreadable"  I'll try again.  (And do you see the gaul and hypociracy of picking someone apart because they can't communicate to your specifications?)

(REDID IT< I Guess my mind was clearer this time) NO excuses for not reading it and taking what I say on totality, not picking out a sentence here or there and then complaining when I am not smart enough or skilled enough to be held up to YOUR STANDARDS in communicating back.  (YOU could have just read anything with the word REPLY .

I know my mind, no one says you have to know it too.  I know my charecter and my priorities.  I am on AFF to do something useful not deflect charges that I am dispicable. I am not.

No ones words on here can hold up to that kind of scrutiny. (STANDARDS)  I say that becasue aspies for freedom, as a forum, needs to go back to being open (AND SPEAKING UP AGAINST THE FEW ON THE FORUM) that pick on those people communicate in different ways. ALL people are fallible.

Freedom is my aim, for all.  And yes, Particularly for those on the spectrum, BECAUSE they are in the minority and the minority can get shouted out or steamrolled.  It happens all the time.

And THAT is why the minority must be able to and allowed to and supported in and respected for SHOUTING BACK!

[/quote]

THE BLACK AND BOLD IS A DIRECT REPLY. To Max the Bear. IN THE SAME FORMAT AS HE USED to "communicate" to me. I give his time the respect of an answer.

Max the Bear Wrote:

Unreadable.

I was able to pick out a couple of responses that I can decipher and address.

1.) By pointing out that the nazis and supremacists support your way of life, I am not talking about 1942. I am talking about the current white supremacist/nazi movement.

You are a white, heterosexual Christian. They believe those are the "right" things to be and target people who fall outside those parameters. You are not their target, so that gives you some degree of choice as to whether you oppose them or hold hands with them and skip through fields of daffodils. I can't see that as a difficult choice. Neither can I plead for understanding and acceptance on their behalf as you did. I can't even be neutral. You know what Dante said, " The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality."

It seems you can be neutral toward supremacists because you are not their target.

See, I don't understand that mind set. I'm white, but I've done anti-racist work for 20 years. Not because anti-racism benefits me -- I'm white, and white privilege works to my advantage -- but because racism is simply wrong. Same with sexism and antisemitism. I'm not black, female or Jewish, but I can't just say "oh, well, the KKK is nice to me, so I'll have them over for tea and a cross burning." Nor can I sit and watch and say, "You black people (and women and Jews, et al) really have nothing to complain about so kindly *** off."

Which actually leads us to another typical atypical remark.

2.) "Being gay or jewish in this day and age, is not awful." You really are shameless, atypical. Shameless. It is such a function of unearned privilege to sit on your throne of blissful obliviousness and tell us about the lives of people you know nothing about.

Being gay or Jewish has never been awful, atypical. There is absolutely nothing awful about either one and there never has been. Being the target of homophobia or antisemitism has been awful. It still is. You know nothing about it. It is wrong for you to act as if you do.

You do not have to understand my mind set.  Maybe you can't because I am being nice and you are not looking for nice.

You are asking me to, so I am answering you back.  Because you call me "white and Christian" you said that means I benefit from Supremacy. ANd because you don't know me you assume I am the boogy man, that I am now rascist or homophobic becase I don't see things like you do.  The people I know, be they : jewish/gay/lesbian/transgendered/mexican/irish catholic/immigrant/ have it better now and don't have to worry like people used to about being alwasy on the look out for prejuduce to rear it's ugly head. You are very angry about being mistreated, were you mistreated because you are gay?  That is not my fault.  Have I been mistreated equally as badly for being white, no probably not, I have been pretty lucky.

I have not mistreated you. What kind of names are these you are calling me, do you think they attack or attempt to mischarecterize my words and therefore my character?  Are you being hypo-critical? Aren't you the one pulling out specific details of some ones race or religion and trying to read them in the worst possible way, to "discriminate" and pre-judge me?  and how I "act like I do"... ? Making fun of my ability or inability to answer your lengthy go at me and you say that to me?

1 plus 1 equals 2, (Max says X is bad, (X equals something that no one would disagree with) everyone nods their head yes. Max says,  Atypical eats snails for breakfast or if you are white that means you are a supremecist.  That is a propagandists technique. I said before, I am a human being, I am not Switzerland (or The US doing big money back door deals with Nazis).  I am a person who speaks up for the freedom to speak in GENERAL, in a forum atmosphere.  I can't have zeal for every issuse.
It is my opinion that it is Not for me to judge any person.  I am not a moderator and if you felt insulted by someones (to you) apparent homophobism or whatever, speak up.  Because I do not see things exactly like you or read things just like you, that does not make me guilty "sleeping with the enemy".

It is wrong to act like I do? Like I do? Have I twisted peoples words and put words in anyones mouth, not ever.  I practice every day anti-discriminatory behavior in my real life.  I am polite and respectful and I like people, everyone.  I don't like everyone's beliefs, but that is not for me to judge.  I am not on this forum to tell people I am frustrated (personally) or to get support for how I am.  I am here for my family. AND I show kindness when I have the opportunity to show kindness.

Oh, by the way, I am no social butterfly nor do I have the gift of great writing ability - this format is difficult.  But in real life I have my family my husband and 3 really wonderful friends.  Three friends that I made in my whole 37 years.  One of them was a female jewish girl, who is now a pagan transgendered male, living in Oregon. The other is a dyed in the wool (former ballet dancer) Republican living in Vermont, and the third is a married (to a man) bi-sexual (tattoo model) with children that still lives in New Jersey.  How do you get off telling me you know me at all?

I have decided that a few on here have a low-tolernace for believing what people tell them.   They would rather cling to their own ideas about a person, a subject etc., Is it more interesting that way? IS that mor elike "out there" or just less boring?

Also, if you aren't priveleged enough to have a bunch of "supporters" and therefore "immunity" to flounder around with your choice of words, anyone that does not go along and nod or join in, is of no use, and must not contribute? That seems too close to my sons awful middle school.  Some days you eat the bear and some days the bear eats you, pun intended.

I have what I'd like to think is the answer.  A few people are angry, a few are tired, a few are emotion right now, but everyone is mainly nice.  I think that people have enough to deal with in their real lives that some people only focus on the good and some people can only participate on their issues and some just like to make peace,some people hold very sttrong opinions. Of couse there are as many personalities and ways of thinking as there are people.  Oh yeah, that's right.  All people are different.  That should be protected on AFF.

Indifference, apathy, fear, hope, kindness and acceptance.  Are we all still talking about the banned people or are we going to move on?

Ethel Wrote:

I don't see anyone posting about banned members. There WAS a big blow-off of steam in the two or three days after Lucie was banned, which I think was largely healthy and allowed a lot of very, very angry people to get the emotion out of their system harmlessly, but that's died down now. Yes, there are still Winter jokes but they're not likely to go away - the whole situation was just so bizarre that it's going to go down in AFF legend and in ten years time the words "No, I'M Mark Winter" will probably still get a laugh.

So, Atypical, how about it? MOVE ON, as you said. Stop rubbing people's noses in what they did while they were angry, yet expecting us to give you the benefit of the doubt because you've got so much other stuff happening in your life. I've got a shitload of stuff happening in my life, too, and so do most people, but online nobody else knows about that. All we know about each other is that we choose to type out and post.

Hear hear...

Since the interesting part of the conversation now has another thread, I'm just going to close this one down - I don't think continuing this thread will do much except bring back old dramas.

So, thread locked.

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