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What happens when you see the word 'Autistic' ?

Perhaps it conjours up images of children isolated from the world and their families. These *children* behave in unfathomable ways, perhaps they even harm themselves. They will never learn even the most basic social interactions and will be totally dependant on their familes for the rest of their tragic lives. In short, they are helpess, a burden.

Oh really? Then who is this 21 year old man with a successful educational career (can drive!!) and functional social life? Is he Autistic too? Impossible! The above definition is the only acceptable one that mainstream society can comprehend. Case closed.

I want to make it clear to my fellow Aspies and activists just what kind of a struggle lies before us. Could it be the case that we have lost our battle before it has even begun? Let me illustrate the problem: try thinking of a doctor, now try thinking of a lady doctor. Now a judge, and next a female judge. It is certainly the case in the English language that the female versions of these job descriptions have negative conotations. In fact in English a man is the mesure of all things, the norm, women are the exception, the modification of the norm. Thus women are 2nd class citizens because they are treated as 2nd class in the language: the medium we use to communicate and structure the world around us. Men have tradtionally held the power in western societies thus they control the language and keep women 'in their place'.

The same is true of us Aspies, we have nowhere to go where we can be recognised as individuals of worth, without the stigma imposed upon us by society. There is no positive space for us in language. Organisations like CAN control how Autism is percived, and as such I cannot be an Autistic and a Person. The two terms are as complimentary as black and white.

The result: The definition of Autistic is incompatible with the definition of a Person. Only people are entitled to human rights. Thus responsibility for our survival rests solely on big buisness Autism groups who profit hugely from our continued suppression.

The solution? We must find a way to reclaim language and re-define ourselves. Now some might say that this has already begun: the term 'Aspie' for instance. But this is problematic. How many people do you know (outside of activist groups) that actually use this? When I use the term to describe myself people do not understand what I mean, I have to resort to 'Autistic' again, and we are back to square one.  Even amoungst members of my local support group this term is unheard of and I doubt it will catch on, as some Aspies simply cannot see themselves as anything other than disordered.

Secondly consider how certain feminists have attempted to alter language to try and balance out the inequality eg, 'womon' instead of 'woman', 'herstory' instead of 'history'. Again these modified terms have not enjoyed usage outside of radical feminist circles, and when the outside world learns of them confusion and irritation are often the reaction. Exercises such as these are pointless. English is not a language that can be modified for 'equality' it is a sexist language from the ground up, by design.

The same situation faces us Aspies. I had hoped to end this on a more positive note but I see only insurmountable difficulty ahead.
It is certainly a more positive look at the situation yes thank you gwynfryn. Smile

Also I am glad you underlined the importance of creativity and imagination. I think I have found a possible solution to the problem I outlined in my original post. The following is an edited post from another board I am a member of 'ac-glbt' (hence the references to 'gay'). It discusses in more depth the problems that occur with truth and language (and the consequences). If you are already familar with my twist on Nietzsche's thoughts on language (and how it relates to autism, simply skip to the 'a solution in art' section, which I will quote separately).

Quote:
The balance of power in any society rests solely with
language. Language comes into being in the first instance because
people who wish to form communities need to communicate with
eachother.

Each individual has his own internal understanding of the world, but
for language to function as a means of *external* commincation between
individuals it must be governed by strict rules that apply to all who
use it. So that when one person uses a word it stands for the same
thing as when his neighbour uses it. Thus language does not actually
express anything about the external world that is not in some way an
invention of man.

We cannot have "knowledge" outside of language, the notion is
meaningless. But by definition that is exactly what knowledge attempts
to do: grasp at the fabric of the world. If we cannot have knowledge
then we can only have the belife that we posess it (whether we realise
it or not). Thus truth is simply a belief that is fixed by rules in
language, it does not exist separately out in the world somewhere.

Consider also what language is made up of: words. What is a word: a
verbal form of a concept, and what is a concept: a mental form of a
word. This is NOT a trival statement. Consider the transistions that
occur between a mental concept to a word with a shared meaning (and
visa versa). Can one have even the remotest resemblence with the
other? "Thoughts die when they are embodied by words".

But whatever its shortcomings it is obvious that language conditions
the way we actually concieve of the world. Thus the powerful in
society govern the very structure of reality (as they have a vast
influence on the rules of language).

As previously stated: concepts are not adequate to express our
thoughts publically, as the transformation into a shared language
simplifies them by nessicity. Consider: 'I am Autistic' is
incompatible with 'I am successful'. Why? Becuase firstly 'Autistic'
and 'Sucessful' are two separate concepts, which in turn are
substitutions for two separate mental representations of things. We
know privately in our heads what we mean by these words (and in this
space there is no conflict between the two) but when we say these
words outloud, together, in the same sentence, they conflict with the
public definition of them which is defined by powerful groups like CAN
or ASA. When we Aspies protest at such misrepresentation we are met
with moral outrage on behalf of groups like CAN because they belive
their definitions are the only valid ones, that they actually express
a truth about the world (rather than a belief fixed by convention).
Morality is always a good mask for one's true motives.

So how can we escape? Every time we use language we mis-represent
ourselves, but we cannot help BUT use language if we wish to take part
in the social world. If language does not do the job required of it
what other mediums could we use to communicate?



A solution in art

Quote:
Nietzsche suggests art, because it does not relate to the world as
language does. Art does not attempt to fit the world into narrow
concepts or compromise experience for sake of social relations (as
language does by definition). The artist has a raw, sensual connection
with the world, which he is free to express without the restrictions
language places on the speaker. In the past religion has been used to
persecute gays and empirical science to supress Autistics. The problem
(as just demonstrated) with both religion and science is that they
seek knowledge (truth) about the world, but that is impossible due to
the nature of language. Art avoids the pitfalls of both science and
religion because the art does not attempt to represent truth, only
*experience*. Art is a form of communication that frees the mind from
the tyranny of language and the power it affords groups in society
that abuse it.

We Autistics have an advantage over the NT populus even here. Some of
us have picture thought. Picture thought translated into words? Like a
poem translated through several languages (eventually all meaning is
lost). Picture thought expressed in art? Ah a solution perhaps?

AspieBoy Wrote:
The same situation faces us Aspies. I had hoped to end this on a more positive note but I see only insurmountable difficulty ahead.


Why not stop succumbing to stereotyping autism?  Saying that we need to find a new word because autism means the stereotypes is kind of like saying the stereotypes is real.  I really dislike the move toward the word "aspie" for this reason, and I also think overuse of the word "aspie" makes a lot of people invisible.

Quote:
Gareth wrote:
about art:
art cannot be a solution to the problem of language acting like a tyrant because although it can be used to express concepts, it cannot be used in normal everyday communication. the artist makes a statement, but he does not engage in a conversation.


Well I suppose it depends on your defintions of what art actually *is*. Some people, for example, think art is a form of pure expression, directly from the mind of the artist to the canvas (or sculpture or whatever...) Others might state the artist is trying to convey a specific message to the viewer. A third group might say that some forms of art don't try and communicate a message at all, but are rather about how you (the onlooker) relate to that particular piece.

Gareth's statement is problematic. By saying the artist cannot hold a conversation you are assuming that the rules of communication that apply to language apply to art also. As I have said before: language expresses concepts, and concepts are inadequate representations of reality. Art does not function in the same way as language, not all forms of art make use of concepts.

By communicating on this forum we are using language (and therefore concepts), and thus run into the very problem I have been trying to demonstrate. By saying 'art' or 'artist' we are using concepts and thus assume that by talking about art we are discussing something that can be verified as objectively true. By looking at a work of art and trying to see a specific "message" or "truth" behind it you are assuming too much about the nature of the world and the artist himself. That is what my signature is trying to say: that the man who wants to discover knowledge or truth through language will fail, but the artist does not treat the world in the same way, and by doing so might actually succeed where the "knowledge seeker" failed.

It is the intellectual laziness of centuries of philosophers who have assumed (as have the general population) that traditional language (the word) is a the only valuable form of expression, that there could be no society without the language as we know it. Unfortunately after this viewpoint was considered gospel nobody bothered to try anything different. From the point of view of religion also: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" anyone?

When (above) I said that a third type of artistic expression might be that which is about the viewer's attitudes alone, it is that type I had in mind as my original solution to the problem of language. Art that has been produced by an Autistic challenges the assumptions of the world. It does not have to utter a word, present an argument, nor express a truth. It's existence forces the viewer to re-evalute themselves. Today for example I visted a friend of mine who is an artist. She was showing me one of her abstract paintings and I asked her if it was supposed to represent anything in particular, what it meant. She said that it had just been an experiementing with new techniques that she was trying. When I understood this, I realised that her painting had told me more about both her and myself, than I could ever have discovered if the painting had had a specific meaning.

I cannot make this any clearer for now, let us move on:


Quote:
SirRich wrote:
Very interesting thoughts Aspieboy. I'd be interested in what you (or Nietzsche) thinks about word art (poetry, fiction and theatre, film and stand up comedy to an extent) in this context.


Firstly it is not for me to tell you or anybody else what Nietzsche might think about anything, he is dead. Whenever I read any of Nietzsche's works all I have are interpretations of his thoughts. I mean I did not see into Nietzsche's head when he wrote 'Beyond Good and Evil' (for example). Thus all I really have are his intentions represented in the evil "concept" (with all the problems disscussed above). I also do not speak German. Thus I have to rely on the accuracy of the English translators. Even before we consider bias here, we have to acknowledge that in one form or another the thoughts that came from Nietzsche's head have been through several translations already: ever played Chinese whispers? Smile

However whether I am entitled to speak for him or not I do use what I consider to be his ideas as part of my own system of philosophy, and it is from this perspective that I can justify answering the rest of your post:

Art, poetry, fiction etc... avoid the problem of language to an extent because they make use of lingustic 'tools' (metaphors, similies, puns etc) to break the rules language places on expression with the writtern / spoken word. They cannot avoid using concepts to express their meaning, but by presenting their message in an unconventional manner they force people to question their assumptions about their interpretation:

Quote:
In "On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense" Nietzsche wrote:
It [the intellect] seeks a new realm and another channel for its activity, and finds this in myth and in art generally. This drive continually confuses the conceptual categories and cells by bringing forward new transferences, metaphors, and metonymies. It continually manifests an ardent desire to refashion the world which presents itself to the waking man, so that it will be colourful, irregular, lacking in results and coherance, charming and eternally new as the world of dreams


Quote:
SirRich wrote:
I see it as describing experience in words. But the way people use words to describe experience must have an influence on how they percieve the truth.


That is part of the point I was trying to make originally, yes. For example when I learn about the differences between certain German and English words the way I have interpreted Nietzsche can change dramatically. Nietzsche's thoughts on the master and slave moralities appears in a very different light once you understand that German (apparently) treats words like 'sympathy', 'empathy' and 'pity' very differently to English (in terms of the concepts they represent).

Quote:
SirRich wrote:
Doesn't Nietzche use fictional and dramatic techniques in his philosophy? Sartre certainly did.


I think the above quote demonstrates that quite well (infact the opening paragraph for "On truth and Lies..." demonstrates Nietzsche's true genius in this respect). Nietzsche is the only philosopher that I read with a stupid grin plastered all over my face Big Grin! He has a fantastic sense of humour and a devistatingly accute way of scrunitising society and people's motivations. Although I am not overly familar with Satre (outside selected readings from: 'Being and Nothingness' and a basic biography), I have heard that he was quite familar with Nietzsche's work and there certainly seem to be some parallels between both their philosophies (particularly in relation to God's "death" and the importance of man to create his own destiny and be solely responsible for himself). Satre was wrong in this respect though: human freedom is not a curse, but rather a mixed blessing. :wink:

Quote:
anbuend wrote:
Why not stop succumbing to stereotyping autism? Saying that we need to find a new word because autism means the stereotypes is kind of like saying the stereotypes is real. I really dislike the move toward the word "aspie" for this reason, and I also think overuse of the word "aspie" makes a lot of people invisible.


I wasn't succumbing to stereotyping anyone. All I was trying to point out was that by defining myself as Autistic I was forever being misrepresented by outside society. In my original post I pointed out the problems of trying to find new words like 'Aspie' to improve the situation. After finding no easy escape from the problem in language, I attempted to find an alternative solution in art. Now whether I am successful or not is another matter, but that is the point of this debate...

I can see why a lot of people would take offense at having Autism described with much emphasis placed on their environment and surroundings. But if we take a genetic approach we have to accept that there will be those out there that will use this to their political advantage:

If Autism is learned behaviour: Use ABA to replace defective Autistic behaviours with 'normal' ones.

BUT

If Autism is an inherited charecteristic: Abort the Autistic child before they are born and cause a major financial burden to family and society.

Amy Wrote:
We have to defend ourselves against both of those notions. We are not broken to be fixed by ABA, nor defective to be aborted.



What's interesting is that in either possibility, genetic or behaviorial,  we are looked at as a burden to society.  

Yet when I go out and see NT children behaving horribly and their parent's are ignoring it, I think "What about these kids???  They're not a burden to society?"

NT or not - it really just depends on the parents.

Lili Marlene Wrote:
My kids aren't angels at all, but I do believe they have something to offer to other kids.


That's a very good point - we do have a lot to offer a NT-dominated world. We have deep insights into human behavior because most people take it for granted, but to make sense of these things we have to study them in detail.

Also I should clarify the statement "Aren't they a burden to society?"


I meant that when someone says "Autistic children are a burden" I can point out many reasons why we are in fact easier to deal with than NT children in a lot of situations.  My example of children behaving badly in public was a little off because it implied that all NT parents of NT children are bad parents.

Gareth Wrote:
i think the term LFA is required because there is a higher risk of retardation in autistics (and therefore we need a name to distuingish between *** individuals and higher-functioning individuals)


1.  Why?  Why is it so important to separate people by IQ score?  What useful or truly descriptive purpose does it serve?

2.  Some so-called lower-functioning autistic people are by normal standards quite bright.  (So are some so-called *** people.)

I think that all LFA and HFA does is act on standards and prejudices imposed on us (and sadly and obviously absorbed by some of us) as to some really superficial aspects of appearance and NT expectations.  I have no desire to further those expectations and misconceptions by using the terms.

Lili Marlene Wrote:
Davixen wrote They are all clear on one thing over the recent months, there is NO mild when it comes to Asperger Syndrome, you either have it or you don't.

I know I am wandering off the topic a bit, but I want to challenge your claim that there is a clear line between AS and NT, which seems to be what you are arguing.

I have read and heard so many references to people who have Aspergers traits only, or close relatives of diagnosed autistic people who represent the Broader Autistic Phenotype. Egocentricity seems to be an AS trait that can be inherited with only one or two other AS traits, and you end up with a person who is constantly looking for and finding friends and then losing them. Such a person has an impairment, but they aren't obsessive and they do enjoy imaginative type pastimes, so they aren't even close to an autistic diagnosis. You only have to look at some families of diagnosed people to see definite autistic traits scattered about.

Wouldn't it be better if the parents of aspie kids thought that autism is a thing that is part of our family rather than an alien scourge that has fallen upon our outcast child?

Perhaps you are arguing that the specific features of AS that are problematic are not found in mild and harmless forms, but are definitely present or not?


another quote: What depicts the way it affects an individual has a lot to do with their personality, their upbringing and social/environmental factors.

It really grates on me when people say that how we turn out is very much determined by our environment, because during my teens, the one time when it would have been helpful for people to know why I was failing, people assumed that my differences were due entirely to family dysfunction. This reminds me of that "Refrigerator Mother" tripe that people used to believe about autism.

I acknowledge that once a person is known to have AS they will do much better in a suitable job and social environment, but social deterministic thinking too often prevents people from finding out that they have AS in the first place.


Excuse me but I find your response ferocious in nature - challenge all you like but it isn't me you are challenging but some VERY well respected experts in the UK.  They are positive that Asperger is a condition that you HAVE there is no maybe or mild, you either have it or you don't.  I refuse to continually have to argue my posts against people who wish to be accepted yet choose to constantly contradict other Aspies.  It is becoming tiresome and patronisning.

As for the other quote this again comes from the UK professionals and is NOT meant in the way you have interpreted it.  

D

Gareth Wrote:
we already know that autism is an inherited trait and therefore is mostl likely genetic - we just don't know exactly which genes yet.

As soon as the genes are known eugenics will happen. why?
because autism is already viewed as a negative thing - finding the genes will enable them to screen. who cares about the origins? if they can remove this "disability" from the population then they'll do it.

only thing that can stop this from happening is educating the public - and that is a duty for all of us.

for your species ladys and gentleman, for your species...


How can you say we all have a 'duty' when even if a member can offer evidence to alay fears that a study has nothing to do with eugenics people remain tunnel visioned and blinkered.

It has nothing to do with 'duty' but a belief in doing what's right and moral - telling people they have a duty is like living under a dictatorship something we're fighting against right now.  We live under an NT dictatorship right now do we not?  Telling people this is an ideal opportunity and they have a choice to fight this offers respect for making your own choices.

anbuend Wrote:

Gareth Wrote:
i think the term LFA is required because there is a higher risk of retardation in autistics (and therefore we need a name to distuingish between *** individuals and higher-functioning individuals)


1.  Why?  Why is it so important to separate people by IQ score?  What useful or truly descriptive purpose does it serve?

2.  Some so-called lower-functioning autistic people are by normal standards quite bright.  (So are some so-called *** people.)

I think that all LFA and HFA does is act on standards and prejudices imposed on us (and sadly and obviously absorbed by some of us) as to some really superficial aspects of appearance and NT expectations.  I have no desire to further those expectations and misconceptions by using the terms.


Well said anbuend, I am finding that standards and prejudice on AS forums supposedly started so that people with AS can be open and accepted are in some areas nothing more than hypocrasy - if you don't follow an ideal or opinion you're criticised and heckled so that you feel forced to defend yourself.  This is NOT to my mind being all accepting by any means.

I am finding more and more that I have to be someone I'm not - that is the persona I presented to the NT world for years - on supposed AS boards.  Not only does this feel wrong it IS wrong and I know that I'm not alone in this feeling.  It is beginning to feel like something Star Trek fans would relate to, a borg collective - think as one mind, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile.

I am finding that a lot of the arguments come from individuals who don't believe in diagnosis and yet feel ready to shout down those of us who have been diagnosed and don't judge others in the way we are judged.  I must add before I get judged, criticised and shouted down AGAIN, I do not believe that people should be forced into diagnosis it is personal choice, not a duty and not a requirement to belong.

Gareth Wrote:
anbuend:
autism is a very wide spectrum, and so there is a need to distinguish between LFA (which can be grown out of to become HFA, but it still is very much a disability) and HFA


I am not at all sure that you can place autism on a linear scale of functioning.  That's why I asked the question.  Some people described as LFA have completed university degrees at ages when there was no possibility I could have done the same thing, for example.

The personal reasons for being interested in this:  I have been described as both low-functioning and high-functioning at different points in my life (both relatively recent, i.e. past 10 years or so), and do not see myself as having changed much in "functioning" (except I lost a few skills and now they call me high-functioning -- strange world, this).  That's the reason this is of interest to me.  I don't really think it's possible.  A friend who also doesn't think the LFA/HFA scale amounts to much said that if someone looked at my life in a relatively unprejudiced way at the moment and had to absolutely place me on a scale, they'd probably say I was LFA with a "splinter skill" in writing and a couple other areas where I show talent (they might or might not notice my excellent spatial skills), or that they'd try to balance things out and come out with MFA.  (Note this is not how my friend thinks; it is how she suspects an "expert" would perceive me if they walked into my living room and studied me and tried to be as accurate as possible.)  And they'd say I was getting "lower-functioning" with time.  But really I wouldn't fit on their scale at all and those would be really silly approximations to make.

I am not all that uncommon as a sort of autistic person, and I don't want us to be placed unceremoniously on a one-dimensional scale.  I break those kinds of scales just by existing, and so do a lot of autistic people.  My conclusion in those circumstances is that the scale is broken, not us, and that it is not desirable to use a broken scale.  I can't see autistics as being at "ends" of a one-dimensional spectrum.  I can only see autistics as being various points in a multidimensional (more than 3) space, of different "colors" and "textures" and always in movement.  I can see clusters of autistics in that multidimensional space at different areas of it, but I can't see us all lining up in a line.  Hence, I have immense trouble with HFA/LFA.  I see no need of splitting us in half, or indeed of suggesting that it is better for so-called LFA people to "progress" to so-called HFA.  (I do not want to "progress" to become what a lot of other autistics seem to view as the "Ultimate Aspie" or whatever, any more than people who fit that particular stereotype want to "progress" to be NT, if you get the analogy.)  

I think it is more accurate to speak of skills in specific areas or clumps of areas (where they're even discernible, which they're not always), or of *varieties* of autistic people (clumps of spaces within that multidimensional landscape, but still all autistic), rather than to expect autism to be linear.  It's not.

Lili Marlene Wrote:
Anbuend wrote, with regard to distinctions between HFA and LFA

Quote:
I think it is more accurate to speak of skills in specific areas or clumps of areas (where they're even discernible, which they're not always), or of *varieties* of autistic people (clumps of spaces within that multidimensional landscape, but still all autistic), rather than to expect autism to be linear. It's not.


I like the idea of classifying autistic people according to their skills, (rather than deficits), because this is such a positive way of looking at things.


I don't mind, actually, taking into account both, more like, maybe, traits -- neutral term.  What kind, degree, form, etc, of any given trait or cluster of traits.

Quote:
I wonder if classifying autistic people by varieties should or could be done with reference to the etiology of each particular person's autistic spectrum condition? I certainly seem to fit Baron-Cohen's testosterone theory of AS, but I believe autism can be cause by things such as Tuberous Sclerosis and viral encephalitis (I admit I am no expert on this stuff).


I'm not sure whether it could or not.  More important, I'd think, would be the overall pattern of the person.  I don't know how to describe that, though.  

I know someone whose pattern has a lot in common with mine, but who gets seen as very different than me for a couple differences in traits that we both consider not all that consequential in terms of who we are as people, but the world seems to really value a couple traits of his over mine (he has a job and I don't, he can speak communicatively about half the time and I can't).  

I know another person whose pattern has a lot in common with mine, and she introduced me to someone she knows with an autistic daughter.  The mother was hammering me with questions about her daughter, and I kept thinking, "But your friend knows your daughter way better than I do.  I've never met her or heard much about her at all."  After the mother left, my friend and I sat there silently trying to figure out what had happened.  Finally my friend said, "Oh.  I think I know what it is.  I can talk, and you can't.  She must think you're halfway between me and her daughter, since her daughter can't talk."  We both found this an absurd way of thinking, but it is how some people measure those things ("functioning level" rearing its ugly head again, and showing itself to be based usually on a very tiny pattern of outward characteristics; if the woman had met my friend when she was my age, she might have thought differently, as my friend was just starting to be able to talk fluently in her twenties from the sound of things, whereas I had been slowly losing that ability for over ten years).

Quote:
When I told a few family members that I believed I had AS I had to quickly add that "Of course, I'm not ***" because I knew, being average Australians (ignorant know-nothings) they would think I was claiming to be seriously intellectually disabled.

I think it is a good idea to remember that all kinds of autism cause specific intellectual deficits. There can be superior skills and compensatory skills but there is no getting away from that fact.


And something I notice, too, is that something often gets called a skill in one context and a deficit in another, or rather they are often two parts of the same thing.  Or things are wrongly inferred because of one thing.  

For instance having a very narrow focus means being able to do certain things, it also means not being able to do certain things, and it can be mistaken for other things.  (For instance it can be mistaken for being unable over time to see a coherent whole, when really the person's mind may be very good at coherent wholes but the input/output equipment might be slow.  And that slowness itself can have advantages and disadvantages, and these can change by environment.)

Or things get very mismeasured.  For instance I don't think I test as well on spatial reasoning as I should, because tests of spatial reasoning usually also test visual perception, which tires easily for me and fragments.  So I might fail such a test for a very different reason than a person who simply isn't good at things spatial (but who has more standard vision) might fail such a test, but our results might be interpreted the same way.  (I know also a person who is a very visual/picture thinker (also a spatial thinker, but those two don't always mean the same thing) who flunked the visual section of an IQ test because she couldn't understand the auditory instructions.)

I know that among autistic people, I tend to notice patterns of who is most familiar to me, who immediately makes the most sense, who makes more sense with time, etc.  And when I notice those patterns, they cross all the diagnostic and pseudodiagnostic lines among autistic people.  (In fact I actually have a good deal of trouble automatically perceiving the specific small group of sets of traits that alerts people to things they call "functioning level", and giving it precedence over everything else the way some other people seem to.  It's one reason I doubt the phenomenon, is I doubt that those things deserve precedence even when they're not misunderstood (which often they are).)

LiliMarlene wrote:

Quote:
If you don't believe me


I'm not in the habit of calling people liars, and the expert I was referring to is actually someone in the UK who has been passionate about AS for some time and developed the EQ, AQ, and SQ testing specifically designed for AS and not a broad and general diagnostic tool like DSM and all the others that can and do cover a multitude of sins.

Oh and thanks for the link I did visit and look up as you suggested and surprise, surprise but who should come in at number 2?  The very expert I was thinking of when I posted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15204577

Then in at number seven - the team running the International Molecular Genetic Study and who diagnosed my Sons, Tony Bailey and Jeremy Parr from the Maudsley who share the opinion that there is no mild.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...s=14521186

Wow, this thread is still going?  O_O

I think it's more than "we're so similar to them", WRT what Luai_Lashire said.  It's more like, 'we' and 'them' are made up of false categorizations (except perhaps sociologically, in which case they become artificial categorizations), and many of 'us' are more similar to some of 'them' than many of 'us' or 'them' are to each other.
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