Aspies For Freedom

Pardon me for coming along all of a sudden without much of an introduction; I was simply wondering. I am working on a project for school about the Autistic Spectrum, but this particular question is regarding Classical Autism. Now, I understand that there is a movement to seek a cure for Autism (Which I personally don't see happening anytime soon, much like Bipolar Disorder or Down's Syndrome can't be cured. It's un-un-doable.), but while researching Autism on sites like this one, it mentioned that there are some not-so-ideal things about Autism , such as;

Autism Fact Sheet Wrote:

Children with autism appear to have a higher than normal risk for certain co-existing conditions, including fragile X syndrome (which causes mental retardation), tuberous sclerosis (in which tumors grow on the brain), epileptic seizures, Tourette syndrome, learning disabilities, and attention deficit disorder. For reasons that are still unclear, about 20 to 30 percent of children with autism develop epilepsy by the time they reach adulthood. While people with schizophrenia may show some autistic-like behavior, their symptoms usually do not appear until the late teens or early adulthood. Most people with schizophrenia also have hallucinations and delusions, which are not found in autism.

Add to that the immense difficulty of social interaction, and humans are by nature social creatures, the delayed learning, some of which can be so severe the child cannot walk (Okay, that's anectodal evidence, but still.), what is so bad about at least trying to treat Autism? This isn't Asperger's Syndrome where the person is pretty much normal, this is very severe!

I just haven't found much on the other side of the Autism Treatment thing, and a lot of this site is fairl vague, so if you would be so kind as to throw in your two cents for the sake of learning, that would be very helpful. Thanks.

no offence but you maybe should have looked at this post by a forum moderator

Amy Wrote:

There are too many studies appearing now, on the forum, and requests to me in PM, to allow them to continue.

There are many, many thousands of students in the world, and quite a number at some point study autism. The ones who post on forums are eager to talk to people and see their own study as very important.
We also get the same in the chat room at times.

These people may mean well essentially, but there is a great deal of information on the site and on the autism wiki without them needing to post about it.

These are not studies that affect medical or government ideas, it is students doing their homework, writing essays etc.

They often also want to quote what people have said in the private forums, and can say patronising things like "I want to write as essay to give a voice to you autistics" We already have a voice, they need our help, and they want to get good marks.

These same people disappear quickly when their studies are finished and there is nothing to show that they intend to help our cause any, or give even one dollar as a donation.

we are not against treatment for autism, we against a cure for those auties.

AlongCameASpider Wrote:

Pardon me for coming along all of a sudden without much of an introduction; I was simply wondering. I am working on a project for school about the Autistic Spectrum, but this particular question is regarding Classical Autism. Now, I understand that there is a movement to seek a cure for Autism (Which I personally don't see happening anytime soon, much like Bipolar Disorder or Down's Syndrome can't be cured. It's un-un-doable.), but while researching Autism on sites like this one, it mentioned that there are some not-so-ideal things about Autism , such as;

Autism Fact Sheet Wrote:

Children with autism appear to have a higher than normal risk for certain co-existing conditions, including fragile X syndrome (which causes mental retardation), tuberous sclerosis (in which tumors grow on the brain), epileptic seizures, Tourette syndrome, learning disabilities, and attention deficit disorder. For reasons that are still unclear, about 20 to 30 percent of children with autism develop epilepsy by the time they reach adulthood. While people with schizophrenia may show some autistic-like behavior, their symptoms usually do not appear until the late teens or early adulthood. Most people with schizophrenia also have hallucinations and delusions, which are not found in autism.

Add to that the immense difficulty of social interaction, and humans are by nature social creatures, the delayed learning, some of which can be so severe the child cannot walk (Okay, that's anectodal evidence, but still.), what is so bad about at least trying to treat Autism? This isn't Asperger's Syndrome where the person is pretty much normal, this is very severe!

I think most "strong"/"extreme" (a.k.a. "low-functioning") autistics are much more functional than they are given credit for (there are even a few who are members of this forum). There have been studies that have proven that the majority of autistics (of all types) are not mentally retarded. It's mostly just certain IQ tests which make many autistics appear to have mental retardation.

I'm all for trying to eliminate or mitigate the problems that many autistics have (as long as no positive/neutral traits are affected). That's totally different from a "cure" (in other words, a way to make an autistic into a non-autistic).

(semi-OT: It bothers me when people say "classical autism" or "Kanner autism" for the "extreme" end of the spectrum. There really wasn't all that much of a difference between the children studied by Kanner and those studied by Asperger.)

Gareth Wrote:

DogBrain - I do not believe this individiual is a troll merely for asking questions

Anyway.....
http://aspiesforfreedom.com/showthread.php?tid=2086

Great thread, I read that one when I first came on to the forum alot of good info....

I personally think that a cure is out of the question, we don't need to be cured because there is nothing to be cured.

we are simply 'labeled' as different because we have a different state of mind, most of us are more intellegent than those who are supposedly 'normal' and that apparently scares them, they feel they need to get rid of us for thinking differently.

nathanww Wrote:

Quote:

Children with autism appear to have a higher than normal risk for certain co-existing conditions

Most of us aren't against treating things like epilepsy or cancer. That said, there is a large selection bias here in that there has been very little research conducted on co-morbid conditions that are more common to neurotypicals than to autistics. This goes for a lot of other aspects too--there's a lot of money in figuring out "what's wrong with autistic people", and much less for doing basic research.

Anyway, why are a lot of us opposed to a cure? Personally, I see two issues. The first is the very real possibility of coercion and/or propoganda(from doctors to parents and parents to children). The second is that IMO the world needs a certain porportion of autistic people, especcially in fields that reguire high systemizing abilities, such as computer programming. By eliminating these traits, we could be hurting ourselves as a society.

well said

I completely agree! Smile

On this subject, I am very curious about the happiness quotient. I have spoken to a few AS people who have said happiness is really not that important. Or that they just don't experience it the same as NTs. My question was going to be "are you Happy?" but I suppose I must consider whether happiness is even something that is valued in AS community, or is it just a transient thing easily conflated with pleasure? This is a real question... because not only is happiness a real thing for me, it is where I spend most of my time in JOY. I REALLY am looking for an answer, not to hurt or offend anyone. I am just really interested in the possibility of what types of affect might be valued more or differently than happiness.

flardox Wrote:

nathanww Wrote:

Quote:

Children with autism appear to have a higher than normal risk for certain co-existing conditions

Most of us aren't against treating things like epilepsy or cancer. That said, there is a large selection bias here in that there has been very little research conducted on co-morbid conditions that are more common to neurotypicals than to autistics. This goes for a lot of other aspects too--there's a lot of money in figuring out "what's wrong with autistic people", and much less for doing basic research.

Anyway, why are a lot of us opposed to a cure? Personally, I see two issues. The first is the very real possibility of coercion and/or propoganda(from doctors to parents and parents to children). The second is that IMO the world needs a certain porportion of autistic people, especcially in fields that reguire high systemizing abilities, such as computer programming. By eliminating these traits, we could be hurting ourselves as a society.

well said

I completely agree! Smile

[quote=jedimom777]
On this subject, I am very curious about the happiness quotient.  I have spoken to a few AS people who have said happiness is really not that important.  Or that they just don't experience it the same as NTs.  My question was going to be "are you Happy?"  but I suppose I must consider whether happiness is even something that is valued in AS community, or is it just a transient thing easily conflated with pleasure?  This is a real question... because not only is happiness a real thing for me, it is where I spend most of my time  in JOY.  I REALLY am looking for an answer, not to hurt or offend anyone.  I am just really interested in the possibility of what types of affect might be valued more or differently than happiness.

*******
Jedimom deep thought - cool question - interesting.  Many NT's (so I've experienced/heard/read) do not know how to answer the question "are you happy" after they have been asked it or started to think about it, it seems to lead to unhappiness - because possibly for them - that question may lead them to "comparing" themselves to others and also the "follower" instinct some have that leads them to be more easily convinced by commercials/media or other pressures from peers to aspire to what others call happiness or to equating what material things one has to how happy they must be etc.,
Are aspies less prone to wondering about happiness in the abstract? Are they less prone to caring about what others think ?
about what others have...material wise? Does this make them more prone to "actual" happiness.  Is happiness another word for contentment? I have not thought, 'am I happy" it seems like a waste of a question for me. When I was aware of the topic in some circles and the difficulty in answering it, I thought wow, how self-absorbed - happiness is transient.... Am I content - yup - and if I weren't would that be a big deal?  Maybe contentment leads to having no ambition (ooh I'm telling on myself - I have no ambition tis true) My son left alone, may well not have any ambition, but to be and let be- should he be let be and had he been left alone, would he have every "felt" or been aware of unhappiness?

my son said to me a couple of week ago,something like " mom, please give my life meaning" and he said it cuz he wasn't happy and he remembers not that long ago he was.  HE does aspire to happiness (again) if only because he enjoyed how he felt and he compares it to his own memory and knows he doesn't feel happy now.  He compares happiness against himself though, (thankfully) as he is rather egocentric at age 11, (either due to his age or aspieness)

happiness is great - unhappiness is not necesarily bad...
contentment is good - discontentment is the state of being aggrieved - and kepy too long is not good, it must be changed lest you wallow - I feel a poem or stanza coming on...
"A perverse and fretful disposition makes any state of life unhappy"
                - Cicero
I had to look this one up for the wording : " Our discontent is from comparison: were better states unseen, each man would like his own. - John Norris"

Would my aspie son be better off not being exposed to this world of comparison where many are in various states of unhappiness? Obliviousness is bliss, no?

wow. you are a very deep soul! maybe you are right... but to me, if I had to hide my enthusiasm for the world and the people in it I think I would surely perish. So the comparison exists just by virtue of having silly hypersocial joymonger giggle factories like me out there. How could we possibly protect someone from the comparison without putting value on it like "oh she is fun but she's not very bright"...or..."happy people aren't serious" etc. I have actually heard people say things like this and it seems that to some, to be taken seriously, you have to reduce your affect drastically. I am not sure this doesn't create more division... can you think of another way? to make it different but equally valuable? It would be a lot of pressure to be happy if that were the value too.

atypical Wrote:

[quote=jedimom777]
On this subject, I am very curious about the happiness quotient.  I have spoken to a few AS people who have said happiness is really not that important.  Or that they just don't experience it the same as NTs.  My question was going to be "are you Happy?"  but I suppose I must consider whether happiness is even something that is valued in AS community, or is it just a transient thing easily conflated with pleasure?  This is a real question... because not only is happiness a real thing for me, it is where I spend most of my time  in JOY.  I REALLY am looking for an answer, not to hurt or offend anyone.  I am just really interested in the possibility of what types of affect might be valued more or differently than happiness.

*******
Jedimom deep thought - cool question - interesting.  Many NT's (so I've experienced/heard/read) do not know how to answer the question "are you happy" after they have been asked it or started to think about it, it seems to lead to unhappiness - because possibly for them - that question may lead them to "comparing" themselves to others and also the "follower" instinct some have that leads them to be more easily convinced by commercials/media or other pressures from peers to aspire to what others call happiness or to equating what material things one has to how happy they must be etc.,
Are aspies less prone to wondering about happiness in the abstract? Are they less prone to caring about what others think ?
about what others have...material wise? Does this make them more prone to "actual" happiness.  Is happiness another word for contentment? I have not thought, 'am I happy" it seems like a waste of a question for me. When I was aware of the topic in some circles and the difficulty in answering it, I thought wow, how self-absorbed - happiness is transient.... Am I content - yup - and if I weren't would that be a big deal?  Maybe contentment leads to having no ambition (ooh I'm telling on myself - I have no ambition tis true) My son left alone, may well not have any ambition, but to be and let be- should he be let be and had he been left alone, would he have every "felt" or been aware of unhappiness?

my son said to me a couple of week ago,something like " mom, please give my life meaning" and he said it cuz he wasn't happy and he remembers not that long ago he was.  HE does aspire to happiness (again) if only because he enjoyed how he felt and he compares it to his own memory and knows he doesn't feel happy now.  He compares happiness against himself though, (thankfully) as he is rather egocentric at age 11, (either due to his age or aspieness)

happiness is great - unhappiness is not necesarily bad...
contentment is good - discontentment is the state of being aggrieved - and kepy too long is not good, it must be changed lest you wallow - I feel a poem or stanza coming on...
"A perverse and fretful disposition makes any state of life unhappy"
                - Cicero
I had to look this one up for the wording : " Our discontent is from comparison: were better states unseen, each man would like his own. - John Norris"

Would my aspie son be better off not being exposed to this world of comparison where many are in various states of unhappiness? Obliviousness is bliss, no?

No I meant your question was deep and interesting... I hope someone comes and answers it...

And I really like the way you enhanced the question. It is an amazing set of issues. I hope so too.

atypical Wrote:

No I meant your question was deep and interesting... I hope someone comes and answers it...

The problem with a cure is that it would not just be given to those who ask for it, it would be given indiscriminately. If a cure was available, parents would give it to their child as soon as the DX came through. They would not wait to see if their child wanted it, they wouldn't wait to see if their child's autism had benefits. They would just cure their child straight away.

There is already a parent who therapied his son into liking 3D rides, just because most kids enjoy them and the fact that his Son didn't was down to his autism. Some parents see 'normal' as a goal and would do anything to achieve it for their child, thinking that it is the best thing for them. The idea of taking a step back and trying to locate the real problems don't always occur to them. They see everything autistic as a symptom, and symptom= bad, and bad= a problem.

If there was a cure, there would be few autistics left.

A cure would also be unethical, as it would dramatically change the mindset of the autistic person. It would turn them into somebody else. I imagine that that would be very scary for a young child, to wake up with a different brain.

I do think that therapies have their place, as they just help autistic people learn important life skills. They don't make autistic NT. I don't like anything dangerous or unproved, and ABA can be okay provided the Doctor's good and the hours aren't anywhere near the longest they offer (40 hours a week for an under five!). I'm not sure it works that well, though. There are better options out there, but also worse.

RedRevolver Wrote:

pikajedi4 Wrote:

we are not against treatment for autism, we against a cure for those auties.

If I could find a cure for this, I would. I'd never want to subject anyone to the way I feel.

ah, but you see; that was your experience.

My experience was also awful, however: I discovered a few things about my autism that I love, and I accepted who I am, and what Autism represents, in a purely genetic way.

it shows that the gene pool is still healthy.

since when does this prove any signifcance their are also more autistic people with natural tallents, which is a much larger portion of people.

AlongCameASpider

flardox

pikajedi4

andrew_w

atypical

silverdragon

flardox

jedimom777

atypical

jedimom777

atypical

jedimom777

Planet*Louise

Pikajedi5

johnH