Aspies For Freedom

I am not sure that posting this is a good idea, but I honestly wonder sometimes whether or not NT people are welcome on this forum.  I spent some time in self-reflection today, due to another gosh darn argument, and I cannot help but feel that people who are not Autistic may not be welcome here.  I actually have a full page of comments about NT people, and some directed at me personally, about why NT people should not be here.  

Honestly, they were all from one person, but I wonder, does this forum community weclome all people?

I have said before, I am here to learn.  My husband is an Aspie, and I am uncertain about my daughter.  

But this post is not about ME, it is about the NT people that pop on over to Aspies for freedom.  Are they welcome?  I especially invite the moderators/administrators to chime in with their thoughts.

*Disclaimer:  I do not condone any "cure" spouting, nor any bullying.  From anyone, so I do not mean that kind of person coming on here, whether NT or AS.*

I should add one more thing, I have made some GREAT on-line friendships here, and some of the people have been incredibly kind and welcoming.  Thank you for that.

Interestingly, you don't seem to have posted any of your comments, korrigan - the one where you called me a moron, for example.  You can't post the one where you apologised - because that hasn't happened.
It did occur to me that you might be using this thread to muster some support, following the appalling behaviour of your pal Kattoo13 elsewhere.  I hadn't realised it was all just an elaborate trap so you could launch an attack on me.  'Moron' failed to shut me up, but I still don't subscribe to your fact-free political orthodoxy (though I think you make the mistake common to that sort of 'we are right therefore you are wrong' standpoint of ass-uming that anyone who doesn't agree with you necessarily supports policies or positions that are an anathema to you).

Skipping through some of your collection of out-of-context quotes (seriously disturbing - have you been saving them up just waiting for an opportunity to strike?), I'll respond to some of them, more or less randomly.

Yes, given kattoo's behaviour in what is now a locked thread, your support for her there and your previous behaviour as noted above, it is my opinion that AFF would be a better place without you.  My opinion, as I say - I'm sure it's an opinion you'd rather supress, but that's the nature of your broad political stance, apparantly.  I support free expression of opinions myself.

The nature (and revealed purpose) of this post itself adds to my inclination to lump you together with kattoo - not as representative NTs (I don't think you are), but as accomplished social bullies.  Having apparantly merely sought support and welcome (something we're accustomed to offer here), you now have a group of people predisposed to take your side in what may well (as you appear to wish) become another 'fight club' thread.

Are you going to apologise for calling me a moron, by the way?  Or do you, like the increasingly rabid kattoo in that locked thread, insist that it's your right to say what you want to a bunch of internet nobodies and they can clear off if they don't like it?

This particular quote:
"Thanks though, for demonstrating once again who is the problem here - who it is who really does have their panties in a bunch, who the reallly offensive asshole is, who really can't stop themselves being rude, who can't demonstrate maturity, who thinks they can somehow 'win', who thinks that the aspies can just clear off from AFF if they don't like the 'heat' of your abusive presence."
appears particularly damning, doesn't it?  Except it just mirrors, word for word, the abusive comments kattoo had levelled at me - but hey, it's much more fun to take things out of context, isn't it?

Are you going to apologise for calling me a moron, by the way?  Or are you just going to try and 'win' by starting misleading threads and then making all this personal even though I'd made every effort to make my response on it impersonal?  Just like kattoo's explosion on that other thread, no-one would have known who was being referred to - but you were just itching for a fight, eh?

Your thread asked if NTs were welcome - I think anybody is welcome, as I've said.  But what you really meant was are you welcome.  I'm sure the people you haven't called 'moron' are comfortable enough with you.  But if you don't answers to a question, don't solicit them - and if you can't handle answers you didn't want, don't use the internet, let alone AFF.

[quote=jedimom777]
Is jiggeryqua saying that criticism and debate is "Abuse" when levelled at an aspie and just "information" when levelled at an NT?

Moron isn't the nicest word, I agree...but saying someone has "Clear deficits" qualifies as insulting too... (BTW apologize is spelled with a Z not an s, and deficits is spelled with an I not an e... as long as we are deciding who has characteristics reflecting intelligence, jiggeryqua)

And trying to help one's children to learn to adapt in a confusing world is not the same as wanting them to be someone they're not.  And for the record, my aspie husband has a greater tendency to that emotional blackmail you refer to as offense than anyone I have ever known.  And he freely admits it.  And wants to change it.  Let us WORK TOGETHER... don't look for underlying insults in everything.  Relax a little and give people the benefit of the doubt.  
[/quoite]
No, the two different things you mention are not the same - I've never suggested they were.  I've also never suggested that only NTs use offense as blackmail -  just that in the example quoted, two NTs were wilfully offending people...and then claiming to be offended.

Oh, and calling someone a 'moron' isn't an underlying insult - it's right upfront there.

Oh heck, I am a supposed NT and I get knocked back all the time.  This post, in fact, was somewhat brought on by my fragile ego.  I try my absolute best to post carefully for all people.  I do, really .

Okay first of all, I'm having a complete brain dead day today. University has totally been the worst thing for my intelligence - esp around the May period, I'm hearing/seeing words and they've all got me scratching my head to the point I look like I have lice, with a 'whu-?' expression.

Secondly, I'm an Aspie, and I'm a proud Aspie. I was DXed as an adult, and whilst I wouldn't become NT, I would like certain destructive behaviours I have corrected. These behaviours don't come from being an Aspie - but aspects of my Aspie nature, I feel personally, antagonise them. Because I was diagnosed as an adult, and I was allowed to be a git all through my teenage years, I developed quite a bad attitude problem, and issues with anger, trust etc. I feel personally if I'd been raised knowing I had AS, I wouldn't have these issues as much, because I wouldn't have been so... shall we say, rebellious. All teenagers are rebellious to some degree anyway, and they don't listen (I can say this without sounding wholly patronising as I'm 24). When I told my mum - who I haven't spoken to in 2 years - that I have Aspergers, and explained what it was, she went quiet, then said "I thought you were just difficult". Before, I'd have been like "oh God, thats just you all over, I'm the difficult one, here we bloody go..." but now I know I'm not great with certain things, and its my stubbornness to resist change thats cost me a lot of happiness, so in an effort to become happy, I'm looking to change. To my mum, I was just difficult. But now she understands why I did things I did, and when she's given me advice, she knows to break it down in certain ways, word it differently... and maybe more importantly, I know when to say "I don't understand that", whereas before, I'd have flipped.

I don't think that involves denial of being an Aspergian, that is not what I'm trying to insinuate. Its learning to cope in a world that moves too fast to realistically take into account that some of us function differently. I don't mean that education systems etc shouldn't modify things accordingly for autie kids, or that we shouldn't have legislation in place to protect us. We should. Thats necessary: no-one deserves to be discriminated against. But coping with life as an individual is different.

I have no desire to be popular. I couldn't handle that; apparently by Aspie 'standards' I am popular, and apparently thats down to my sense of humour (although one Aspie local to me said I only can cope IRL because I'm 'very physically attractive and look foreign'. I found that really, really hurtful - people find me attractive, but without blowing my own trumpet, it is not fun to be eye candy when you're not a very flirty, sexual, outgoing person. Yes, people might want to talk to me more - it doesn't bloody well mean I can respond effectively!!!). But sense of humour only gets you so far before you start to see cracks. I'd stare at the floor talking to people; I'd come across as aloof and unfriendly (which again, to relate it back to the physical attractiveness thing - apparently that makes me seem like an uppity bitch who is probably too up herself to talk to you mere mortals); I'd say things I genuinely didn't realise were socially inappropriate. I don't desire popularity, but I do desire not to feel so awkward. Thats why I value NT contribution - for me, as an individual. I will never recognise cues in the same ways NTs will, but I'd like to learn some of them.

I'd like to learn to chill out, and stop being so pent up etc. I'd like to stop worrying as much as I do. In Aspie terms, its ok - I can obsess on something, like my relationship problems, and another Aspie gets that its my Aspergers thats colouring my thinking, poring over things, trying desperately to make it logical in my head. But if that problem is with a NT (and for my locality, it most likely will be), then I'm screwed. My behaviour seems obsessive, controlling and confusing, when I know its not. And I don't think even the most patient, kind, understanding NT wants to put up with someone who is permanantly scratching their head, bamboozled as to what to do or say. They might accept I'm not obsessed in the stalker sense, but that my brain literally is fried because it doesn't make sense to me. For me, I need someone NT to tell me what to do, and to break it down for me into what is emotional binary code, because my brain really just doesn't get emotion in the same way as a NT. It doesn't get social interaction like a NT.

Like, here we go... I get told "let me get to know you as a person, fall for you as the person you are today". My brain doesn't understand that command, and starts coughing out all kinds of crap, like "thats not possible" etc because I can't comprehend it. Thats a lot to do with insecurity as well on my part, which is fabulous when emotional reasoning stumps you as much as it does me. So I need to ask NT people exactly what it means, and what I should do, and get clarification. Asking the person concerned will only piss them off (because I've tried) and make things worse for me.

I would like to be happy, living my life the way I want to live it, and that involves NT assistance in a NT world. For me anyway.

There it is again - that binary, polarised, simplistic either/or view.  Just as it isn't necessary that patriarchy be replaced by matriarchy, no-one is asking for aspieworld.  Just that the NTs accept that their historical dominance isn't necessarily a model for the future - that doesn't equal 'aspieworld', it equals 'everyoneworld'.

Life on life's terms sucks more for the blind, for example - so TV and film makers provide audio commentary.  Nobody campaigns for the ritual blinding of the sighted.  Life on life's terms used to totally suck for women - but I'm guessing you wouldn't have tossed that platitude out so lightly then.  It still largely sucks for darker-skinned races in most western countries - care to toss that platitude to them?  Life on NT terms sucks for aspies - don't toss your NT platitudes at me.

Or were you just pissing on the various ideas and plans behind the various takes on some kind of aspie settlement somewhere?

MY.  You are an ornery fellow... Bitter...party of one?  your table is ready!

I was exaggerating the point silly pie!  It's not  NT world either!!!  it is our world...all of us and it is hard to understand one another sometimes.  It is hard to fit in and no one is expecting you to conform...it's just that we all need to learn to communicate.  and have mutual respect....  seriously.  

If you expect the worst from people, that is what you will likely get. I certainly don't feel like a dominant person and I get on well with all types of people.  I'm learning.  Chill out and understand that being right will not bring you peace or happiness.  Living in your ego doesn't make you safe... only lonely.  My sentiments about understanding are not platitudes... that is just SO rude...... I have deep affection and EMPATHY for my husband who struggles with loads of things.  He is also incredibly successful and interesting.. but he has a hard time in this world.  He considers most of the aspieness to be a pain in the a@#... except for the awesome focus ability and the ability to amuse oneself easily with what other's might be bored with.  So get over it and be friendly. We are all smart here in different ways.  You won't have a friend if you won't be a friend.  

I'm done!  

we covered this one earlier, jedimom777 - I don't know if works for NTs quite as well, but telling me to chill as if you had some magic insight into my state of mind seems solely designed to wind me up so that I'm not 'chill'.  Thus far, it's failed

I have friends (talk to korrigan about what ass-umptions make you) - but well done for disguising much of your offensive commentary on me as 'concern'.  My friends don't include people like you - yeah, really, there are people not like you, and yet they're real people, leading real, fulfilled lives.  My friends don't always agree on what is 'right' or 'wrong', but the people I know who suggest that there is no need to be 'right' are usually 'wrong' to the point of heroin abuse, shoplifting and personal violence, when it suits them.

I'm a taoist - nothing is right or wrong in and of itself.  But some things said in an NT forum are simply damagingly out of place said here.  

It's disingenuous to deny things that you have clearly stated in other posts - maybe you believe yourself, I've noticed that NTs have an enormous capacity for self-delusion.  
but I think I'll pull one of korrigan's tricks out of the bag and tell you I have no further interest in talking to you if all you can manage is taunting.

Wow, I didn't see this coming ( I'll admit I wasn't looking for it, sorry)oh dear, I was just quoting a nice song - just in reference to one line that you wrote " It might ring true if she clearly hadn't roped in some chums by telling them 'he's a misogynist' or somesuch "
that lineat my 11:19 AM posts Eagles song " (a woman) can't take you anywhere - you don't already know how to go" ... adn then I just couldn't help but sing the next couple fo very mellow lines which made me think of justing letting bygones be bygones...
and I got a peaceful easy feeling - and I know you won't let me down - cuz I m already standing onthe ground... can't take you anywhere People can't be roped into and such and such... or people can't be blamed for other people's posts and where a thread goes.
Popel are responsible for what they say to be sure.  I did not, at all, in the least open myself up for anything to do with sexism - I just wrote in a Completely differt post "she" instead of a name.  Not my fault that the Eagles song writer was a man and was talking about a woman. Man/woman makes no differerence ...
Sorry all for making a tangent here, I sure didn't mean to further anything negative here. I thought that the Eagles song had a really nice sentiment is all.
I must be wrong wrong (*it's not the first or last time).
Bowing out of thread. :O)