Aspies For Freedom

I am not sure that posting this is a good idea, but I honestly wonder sometimes whether or not NT people are welcome on this forum.  I spent some time in self-reflection today, due to another gosh darn argument, and I cannot help but feel that people who are not Autistic may not be welcome here.  I actually have a full page of comments about NT people, and some directed at me personally, about why NT people should not be here.  

Honestly, they were all from one person, but I wonder, does this forum community weclome all people?

I have said before, I am here to learn.  My husband is an Aspie, and I am uncertain about my daughter.  

But this post is not about ME, it is about the NT people that pop on over to Aspies for freedom.  Are they welcome?  I especially invite the moderators/administrators to chime in with their thoughts.

*Disclaimer:  I do not condone any "cure" spouting, nor any bullying.  From anyone, so I do not mean that kind of person coming on here, whether NT or AS.*

I should add one more thing, I have made some GREAT on-line friendships here, and some of the people have been incredibly kind and welcoming.  Thank you for that.

K,

I know I for one welcome NT people posting here. I'm not into Aspie supremacy/NT weakness - we're all only human. To me, I'm happy to see NTs/Aspies mix well - its what we have to do in real life, and so long as the NTs are respectful of the fact this is predominantly an Aspie site, I don't care who is what.

There are people I like here very much, and there are people I once maybe would have started arguments with. I don't anymore - its not worth the stress. If people want to go crazy, then let them go crazy... there is sod all I can do about it and I've spent enough of my life going crazy and bringing crazy f*ckers into my life, without having to *** do it on an internet site.

Even the initials 'LC' don't do much for me anymore... and as anyone who knows yours truly knows, there once was a time where I'd quite possibly have been knifing my screen at the mention of it.

Rarrr...

Ah Chris I've been flamed as well... think we all have. Its a great big AFF luv-shack.

Thank you to the people that have posted so far.  

I rambled on much more in the original draft of this post, but have now come to the conclusion that I may be too loopy to post at the moment.  

Thank you again, more Korrigan talk to come later.  

Walk carefully, my padouin.  LOL  KIDDING TOO!

Oh heck, I am a supposed NT and I get knocked back all the time.  This post, in fact, was somewhat brought on by my fragile ego.  I try my absolute best to post carefully for all people.  I do, really .

I find it helpful having the NT perspective... it is an NT dominated world after all, lets face it. And its good to know how to behave around NTs etc. Esp for relationship advice.

That is an especially good one.  I would wear it, but I would have to wear another one next to mine and it would also have to say B*TCH ON THE LOOSE!  LOL!  I am such a Gemini!

I have to admit that I was waiting for your reply Jiggeryqua.  I put together a little snippet of the information that actually caused me to post this thread.

PLEASE NOTE: ALL COMMENTS ARE TAKEN TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT I would strongly encourage the people reading this to go back and read the whole thread, in context, but this is what made me post "Are NTs welcome here..."  All comments listed below, to my knowledge, were posted by Jiggeryqua.

COMMENTS ARE FOLLOWING

Please, as an NT,  don't come on a site dedicated to people likely to have significantly higher IQ than yours and call someone a moron - especially if you're going to maliciously misquote them and fail to rebut their points with anything other than abuse.

But you did.  What you failed to do was apologise for coming on to a site for people widely designated as 'mentally impaired', often assumed to be 'intellectually deficient' and, as an NT with clear defecits in the thinking you presented, label one of them a 'moron'.

Thank you for your response, Joel - I expect that applies to a lot of us on here (even the NTs can leap to conclusions, apparantly).  An apology would have been nice too, but I'll let it go, since even the NTs can't seem to manage one.

We could do with remembering that some aspies are parents - and we could do with a lot less NTs throwing their weight around and bullying the aspies because they display poor social skills - is that how you'd want your aspie offspring dealt with?

1b) You are responding as an NT.  You can't do otherwise.  Try and understand what this forum is about, and the sort of people who use it.

Your son is aspie - you are not.  The fact of your motherhood is biological only - history is replete with parents who problems with their children or the nature of their children.

I don't think either of you belong here, I think you both seem determined to make trouble and determined to address Asperger's only from the point of view of being a problem or flaw in the perfect children you would have hoped for.  That's not what we're about here.

What kind of response did you expect from aspies?  How prepared are you to actually learn, and understand that that was an aspergian response?  Not at all, apparantly.

I'm going to repeat my opinion, since it's one I hold with some conviction - I think the best thing korrigan and kattoo13 could do right now is leave and find a more suitable forum.  If they apologised on the way out, that would be a bonus.

A couple of NT's are claiming they're offended - offense is just a form of social blackmail though.  

Nope, again.  You listed a number of groups you think saw insulted here - none of which has happened.  What did happen was that an NT parent launched themselves into the thread with a barrage of abuse levelled at M...and as Batman55 has just pointed out, it was actually aspies that were being insulted, as a group, and on AFF of all places.  Not for the first time, as it happens - and, as it happens, there's a connection revealed between the two people doing it.

I think you're slightly confusing yourself by understanding my reference to two parents and two NTs to imply that I'm an NT parent - I'm an aspie parent.  That said, if you're so sure you have no idea what I'm talking about why on earth are you adding to the confusion with another post?  Especially one that shares that 'I'm normal and I really don't get what you weirdy aspies are on about' tone that is the root of the problem here.

The one where he also pointed out that coming to AFF, of all places, and impugning the intelligence of aspergian's who are clearly more intellectually capable than you is aggressively offensive.  

Thanks though, for demonstrating once again who is the problem here - who it is who really does have their panties in a bunch, who the reallly offensive **** is, who really can't stop themselves being rude, who can't demonstrate maturity, who thinks they can somehow 'win', who thinks that the aspies can just clear off from AFF if they don't like the 'heat' of your abusive presence.

END COMMENTS

I wanted to post the original thread portion which contained the "moron" comment.  

First, I thought, honest to goodness, that Jiggeryqua was joking at first.  Second, I used moron in this context:  1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.  

I really felt like that comment was lacking in good judgment.

THREAD BELOW

jiggeryqua Wrote:
(Always wished I could raise just one eyebrow...I canmove one of my smallest toes independtly of the others, though not on the other foot...)

Stereotyping is lazy...if you have all the time in the world to establish that broad impressions or characteristics of a nominal group don't necessarily apply to all of them, by any means, every time you'd rather use a stereotype as shorthand - and I'm all for quashing 'stupid Irishmen' jokes or oppressive gender-typing (from either 'side'), but if we're talking about the history of humanity pairing up, it is fair to say that women have never really needed to develop much in the way of intellect....and many of them still don't bother much...

<ducks>

Fire away...

Korrigan wrote:
Did you say fire away?  

There are stupid people abounding!  EVERYWHERE!  

However, I was not so much complaining about the "women are empty-headed" comment as I was the "NT people are empty-headed" comment.

Honestly, if you are enough of a moron to post that women do not need or bother with intellect, you are not worth bothering trying to convince otherwise.  

(All said with a smile)

Okay first of all, I'm having a complete brain dead day today. University has totally been the worst thing for my intelligence - esp around the May period, I'm hearing/seeing words and they've all got me scratching my head to the point I look like I have lice, with a 'whu-?' expression.

Secondly, I'm an Aspie, and I'm a proud Aspie. I was DXed as an adult, and whilst I wouldn't become NT, I would like certain destructive behaviours I have corrected. These behaviours don't come from being an Aspie - but aspects of my Aspie nature, I feel personally, antagonise them. Because I was diagnosed as an adult, and I was allowed to be a git all through my teenage years, I developed quite a bad attitude problem, and issues with anger, trust etc. I feel personally if I'd been raised knowing I had AS, I wouldn't have these issues as much, because I wouldn't have been so... shall we say, rebellious. All teenagers are rebellious to some degree anyway, and they don't listen (I can say this without sounding wholly patronising as I'm 24). When I told my mum - who I haven't spoken to in 2 years - that I have Aspergers, and explained what it was, she went quiet, then said "I thought you were just difficult". Before, I'd have been like "oh God, thats just you all over, I'm the difficult one, here we *** go..." but now I know I'm not great with certain things, and its my stubbornness to resist change thats cost me a lot of happiness, so in an effort to become happy, I'm looking to change. To my mum, I was just difficult. But now she understands why I did things I did, and when she's given me advice, she knows to break it down in certain ways, word it differently... and maybe more importantly, I know when to say "I don't understand that", whereas before, I'd have flipped.

I don't think that involves denial of being an Aspergian, that is not what I'm trying to insinuate. Its learning to cope in a world that moves too fast to realistically take into account that some of us function differently. I don't mean that education systems etc shouldn't modify things accordingly for autie kids, or that we shouldn't have legislation in place to protect us. We should. Thats necessary: no-one deserves to be discriminated against. But coping with life as an individual is different.

I have no desire to be popular. I couldn't handle that; apparently by Aspie 'standards' I am popular, and apparently thats down to my sense of humour (although one Aspie local to me said I only can cope IRL because I'm 'very physically attractive and look foreign'. I found that really, really hurtful - people find me attractive, but without blowing my own trumpet, it is not fun to be eye candy when you're not a very flirty, sexual, outgoing person. Yes, people might want to talk to me more - it doesn't *** well mean I can respond effectively!!!). But sense of humour only gets you so far before you start to see cracks. I'd stare at the floor talking to people; I'd come across as aloof and unfriendly (which again, to relate it back to the physical attractiveness thing - apparently that makes me seem like an uppity *** who is probably too up herself to talk to you mere mortals); I'd say things I genuinely didn't realise were socially inappropriate. I don't desire popularity, but I do desire not to feel so awkward. Thats why I value NT contribution - for me, as an individual. I will never recognise cues in the same ways NTs will, but I'd like to learn some of them.

I'd like to learn to chill out, and stop being so pent up etc. I'd like to stop worrying as much as I do. In Aspie terms, its ok - I can obsess on something, like my relationship problems, and another Aspie gets that its my Aspergers thats colouring my thinking, poring over things, trying desperately to make it logical in my head. But if that problem is with a NT (and for my locality, it most likely will be), then I'm screwed. My behaviour seems obsessive, controlling and confusing, when I know its not. And I don't think even the most patient, kind, understanding NT wants to put up with someone who is permanantly scratching their head, bamboozled as to what to do or say. They might accept I'm not obsessed in the stalker sense, but that my brain literally is fried because it doesn't make sense to me. For me, I need someone NT to tell me what to do, and to break it down for me into what is emotional binary code, because my brain really just doesn't get emotion in the same way as a NT. It doesn't get social interaction like a NT.

Like, here we go... I get told "let me get to know you as a person, fall for you as the person you are today". My brain doesn't understand that command, and starts coughing out all kinds of crap, like "thats not possible" etc because I can't comprehend it. Thats a lot to do with insecurity as well on my part, which is fabulous when emotional reasoning stumps you as much as it does me. So I need to ask NT people exactly what it means, and what I should do, and get clarification. Asking the person concerned will only piss them off (because I've tried) and make things worse for me.

I would like to be happy, living my life the way I want to live it, and that involves NT assistance in a NT world. For me anyway.

Thats cool though JQ, thats why I stressed all the way through 'this is what is right for me'. I can totally get it might not be right for other people, and thats totally fine. Everyone has the right to live their life how they see fit imo, so long as they're not hurting anyone (Jesus, look back to my first posts here - I have mellowed lol).

I have no desire to modify my Aspie behaviour - why should I? - but I would like to modify behaviours I as an individual have developed, that AS doesn't really help, in my case anyway. As in, I have a tendency to be controlling. This isn't meant in a [b]bad[/i] sense, I'm not a bad person, and is done out of a tendency to worry and a great big dollop of insecurity. Obviously, being controlling isn't an Aspie thing, but aspects of my Aspie traits colour what has seemed to others to be an inability to understand how my behaviour may seem that way. Rigidity, liking routine, dislike of change etc + insecurity + mistrust = control freak ocampo.... It makes me seem like an incredibly difficult person when truth be told, these days, I'm too laid back to care what other people do and say. But an upset in my routine and whoomph... I'm off freaking out in a corner, wanting my routine desperately kept in place.

For me, it helps to have someone say "this is what you need to do". I have very, very, VERY limited emotional understanding capabilities. Very poor empathy/ToM, which even at the point of diagnosis I was denying I lacked. I'll never be an empathic person - although I'm very compassionate - but its caused me a lot of despair in my personal life, and I'd like it to stop before I end up an old lonely catlady.

Or, as a t-shirt says, "I'm sure I have a Social Story for this somewhere..."

***bad

Thank you atypical... I hope it makes things easier for your boy!

I'm tiptoeing < that looks odd written down - in here to comment on what jiggeryqua said about individuals and why they chose to stay here.  It's an interesting point and one that I've thought about myself.  I think I started on the parents thread, before ambling further into AFF and finding that I liked it, and the people who make up this community.

I think, that as children are dxed, their parents and other adult family members become exposed, very probably for the first time, to reasonably accurate and in-depth information about what constitutes autism.  These adults may then recognise themselves in what they read.  I'm sure I've read somewhere that increasing numbers of adults are seeking diagnosis, children in their family already having been diagnosed.

This makes sense in terms of the widely acknowledged genetic basis for autism, and the comparatively recent acceptance by medical and educational professionals of Asperger's and the spectrum more generally.

When I first came here, I was unaware of the term NT, found out what it was and I suppose reckoned that it applied to me.  Now...I would say that I have been able to reassess my life to date in the light of my new understanding of autism, and can see a significant number of autistic traits in myself.   Online tests, like the Aspie Quiz and the AQ test put me pretty much in the middle, slightly on the Aspie side, in fact.  I doubt that I would get a diagnosis, and given that I'm now 40 and happy enough in my own skin, I don't think there would be anything to be gained - for me..

Anyway, for what it's worth, that's my perspective on why at least some individuals stay here!

Ellen - I used to do that when I was younger, then I got accused of living in a fantasy world generally, I tend to just ask if I get confused, or laugh it off. I take a lot more constructive advice these days - basically because I know I don't get a lot of things. It really annoys me that people seem to think because of the way I look I'll be socially secure - I'm not, I ask for advice constantly on how to deal with people, and what to do. What I find helps me most in my day to day life is just having a generally sunny disposition - even when I don't really feel up to it, I can usually see the difference in how I'm treated. I'm attached to my mp3 on a near enough permanant basis, and apparently my sense of humour is a good saving grace of mine, so making the effort to smile at someone who smiles at me, moves out of my way, holds open a door for me... its not as absolutist as having to converse with them, plus it placates me a little.

The downside is when someone tries to talk to me - it involves having to remove my headphones and think...

Generally I've found small talk best includes:

"Its a gorgeous day today isn't it?" - people seem to like talking about the weather, and usually start talking about holidays. Thats cool, because I find travel pretty interesting!

Other people just seem to like it if you seem to laugh and smile. I dunno... I'll get there!