Aspies For Freedom

To me it sounds abit hard on the chinese population, but I dunno.

When did I complain about AFF not getting any publicity? Could do with more offline actions, but we do get a reasonable amount of publicity. As for boycotting the olympics: if that's a cause you feel inclined to support go for it. I still don't see it as related to AFF's mission at all.

All tibetans are not autistic, thus it's not an AFF issue. We can't dedicate ourselves to all the injustics in the world. As I said if you feel inclined to support the protests against the olympics then go for it. I don't have just one cause either, but AFF is an arena for just 1 cause, that of autism rights.

What's funny there?
It's not an autism rights issue unless it's affecting autistics in particular.

I strongly disagree.  I do not believe AFF should publicly call for a boycott.

You admit that it's a stretch Ellen, and you admit that the motivation, at least in part, is to get publicity for AFF.  That's the wrong kind of motivation.

Why call for a boycott when there's such a tenuous link between AFF and what's happening in Tibet?  It's even a stretch for you to come up with a link.

It's silly to hop on any passing bandwagon, it doesn't do your own cause any good, because you just get known to be a rent-a-protester who hops on bandwagons.  And there's also the fact that if you're hopping on any old passing bandwagon you dilute your own message.

If people want to boycott the Games, boycott Chinese goods or join pro-Tibet groups, that's their prerogative, but AFF is about aspergers and autism spectrum.  If I wanted to boycott China or join pro-Tibet protests or whatever, I'd join a group/forum relevant to those activities, not try to usurp or dictate the agenda of a totally different group/forum.

If you want to do something do it, nobody's saying you can't or shouldn't. Just don't try to infer that it's an AFF issue.
A few causes I feel passionately about other than autism rights, note that none of these are things I spend large portions of my time on:

Free Software / online freedom (DRM, software patents, censorship et al)
Seperation of church and state (Tax-exempt religious organisations and religious doctrine enshrined into law inappropriately)
Life extension and aging research (Laws banning therapeutic cloning, stem cell research, anti-aging pharmaceuticals)
Cryonics (People who are biologically alive with all their brain state intact yet incapable of supporting their own metabolism and thus require freezing to remain stable are currently labelled as dead and risk autopsy or interference)
Free trade (Any time the government steps in to say 2 consenting parties may not agree to some particular terms is a restriction on freedom)

Now, I would not ask everyone on AFF to go to a rally against software patents, tax-exempt religious organisations, laws against stem cell research, biogerontology and cryonics or trade restrictions for the simple reason that none of them are directly related to autism rights. AFF is not the right arena. I may find some here who'd share my passions but that simply means that those individuals would be good to unite with under a different banner should I wish to act.

I also do not have the resources to be an activist everywhere - no matter how passionately I support the causes listed above I have to divide my time properly. AFF as a group absolutely should not go beyond our own cause (autism rights) unless it brings a direct benefit to that cause. We are not "Aspies for solving all the world's wrongs". As an individual though do what you like.

Then surely the answer is for you to do something as an individual, or join an anti-China/pro-Tibet group, or a Boycott the Games or human rights organisation or whatever?

Why should it be done under an AFF banner when it's nothing to do with Asperger's or autism rights?

There is nothing wrong with talking to people on AFF (hint: We're in the time out section), just so long as it doesn't get in the way of our real purpose here.

yes

There's a snag with adopting such a self-righteous tone...

Guantanamo Bay.  Extraordinary rendition.  Death penalty.  "You're either with us or you're against us."

Union Carbide (Bhopal), Dow Corning (Breast implant litigation), Coca Cola (take your pick: check out KillerCoke website about anti-union activities in South America or siphoning off scarce water resources in India) or look up Victrex/Dupont for an example of American corporate espionage.

This lecture coming from the only country that has actually used nuclear weapons - Hiroshima, Nagasaka, not to mention using nasty chemicals during warfare (the iconic image of the burned vietnamese girl anyone?) and is so frightened by any alternative culture to the extent that if you're not cheerleading for the country you're "unAmerican".

Ooh, the delicious irony!  Illegal wars/invasions, threats of trade wars and sanctions... yes, we know a bully when we see one!

Signatures of other random unrelated associations and organisations wouldn't lend any additional credibility.  What's wrong with being nameless protesters?  Or is protest only worthwhile if you get some kind of credit and brownie points and recognition?

Very.  Not least because I, for one, won't be lectured to by an American about human rights when a cameraman colleague working for the same broadcaster has been on hunger strike for months in Guantanamo where he has been held for more than six years without charge or trial.  His offense?  He was arrested in Pakistan en route to Afghanistan with a legitimate visa to cover the story.

Seriously Ellen, so many people could make the same arguments against American imperialism that you're making.  Someone else has already mentioned the plight of native Americans.  How many of them were massacred in the interests of 'civilising' them?

It was more a device.  I was using like-for-like.  Ellen was arguing with crude stereotypes and I just mirrored that straight back at her.  She was basing arguments on nationality, is that not equally ignorant?

I mean, it starts out as asking people to sign up to support pro-Tibet anti-China Olympics protests, but then degenerates into broad unspecified accusations, asking China to stop terrorising its people...

... and what this:  

"We ask that you be a fair market trader rather than the industrial-secrets thief, shoddy-dangerous-products producer you now are"

has to do with pro-Tibet protests, I don't know!?!

I must admit though I was particularly ticked off by the comment about nuclear power (considering the context, i.e. the U.S. is the only nation that's actually used such devices in a warfare (not testing) setting), and also the comment about bullying, given American hegemony and the fact that Bush doesn't have a clue that 'imposing democracy' is an oxymoron.

If someone's going to use such blunt instruments in their arguments, why is it wrong if someone else uses the same tools to rebut those arguments?  And also, Ellen saying things like: "So how is it ludicrous again?" is mocking in tone and so again I reserve the right to mirror that right back and be equally mocking in reply.

All I did was mirror Ellen's use of stereotype, nationalism, and mocking tone.  I wonder if you're going to complain about Ellen basing her arguments on stereotypes and nationality?  Or is it only acceptable if it's done about non-Americans?  Is it only ignorant to base arguments on nationality if the subject of those arguments are American, or is it equally ignorant to base arguments on nationality when the subjects of those arguments are Chinese?

Hello Frank, I shall be Betty Boo.

I'm a human being.  I opposed the invasion of Iraq.  I oppose many things that the US does.  I oppose many things that the UK does and I oppose... (I could write a long list here, but I won't bore you with the details).  There are lots of dangers in the world.  Not least the shocking idiot maniac drivers in the country where I'm living who don't indicate, who weave dangerous in and out of traffic, swerve across lanes and tailgate... oh, erm, I digress, where was I?

I'm soooooooooooo glad you said "China CURRENTLY commits many more crimes in Africa and Asia than the US", because that rather cleverly means I can't rebut your argument (well I might be able to, if I had several hours to do some research, perhaps another day I might look at US arms sales to various African and Asian despots and dodgy regimes and 'do the math' as to how many people are killed on those continents while lining the pockets of defense industry executives and shareholders...)

Because if you had said "China CURRENTLY commits many more crimes in Africa and Asia *AND THE MIDDLE EAST* than the US."  I'd have been able to pull you up on that.  I mean what are the latest statistics out of Iraq?  We might know more accurately but US General Tommy Franks (in)famously said:  "We don't do bodycounts."

Iraq Body Count puts documented civilian deaths in the region of 82,000-90,000.  That's just deaths from violence.  That doesn't include the people who've died as a result of not being able to access healthcare (either due to lack of security, or lack of funds, or because medical staff have fled the country). Some estimates put those figures in the region of 1-5 million over the past five years.  More than were killed by Saddam Hussein.

And don't forget U.S. service personnel deaths have topped 4,000 (NB: that's more than were killed on 9/11, if you really want to play the numbers game).

Quite.  You mean the badly behaved country that has the death penalty, where the majority of those convicts on death row are black?  That launched what even Kofi Annan called an "illegal" war that's resulted in the deaths of at least a million Iraqis.  You mean the democracy where George Bush 'stole' the last election?  The democracy where the candidate who received more votes, won 'the popular vote', Al Gore, actually 'lost' the election to the person with fewer votes?  Liberal?  Oh, you mean the country where people are free to bear arms in order to shoot one another?  Where you're either with us or against us?  You have free speech so long as you're cheerleading for the US, but if you criticise then you're unAmerican... you mean *that* genocidal fascist regime?

"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."
[Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

What aspect of Britain in the Second World War are you asking if I would have supported?  I'm not sure what specific comparison you're making with UK in the 1930s and 40s and Nazi Germany.  I have some vague recollection that there were connections with the royal family or something, but I ignored all those WWII history lessons at school, are you talking about that?

Here's another Olympics-related campaign...

Catch the Flame is an initiative of Play Fair 2008 and is supported by a
global alliance of trade unions, non-governmental organisations (NGOs),
labour groups and concerned individuals, working together to draw
attention to the maltreatment and exploitation of workers in the
merchandise industry of the Olympic Games in Beijing (2008), Vancouver
(Winter 2010) and London (2012).

The aim is to pressure sportswear and athletic footwear companies, the
International Olympics Committee (IOC), its organising committees
(OCOGs), the National Olympic Committees (NOCs), and national
governments, into taking identifiable and concrete measures to eliminate
the exploitation and abuse of workers in the global sporting goods
industry.

Play Fair 2008 is organized by the International Trade Union
Confederation (ITUC), the Clean Clothes Campaign (CCC), and the
International Textile Garment and Leather Workers Federation (ITGLWF).
Play Fair 2008 is also supported by a range of trade unions and NGOs.

It is envisaged that this campaign will continue through to the London
2012 Olympics and that decent work and labour standards are written into
all global sporting contracts.

To show solidarity with all workers in the supply chain that feeds the
Olympics, please follow the link http://www.catchtheflame.org to a
virtual Olympic torch that can be passed on electronically.

I received an email from the same source informing me of a trade-union-led relief effort for the victims of Cyclone Nargis. I didn't know there were any trade unions in Burma.

Really? I thought trade unions tended to be pro all that human rights and democracy stuff.