How important is
a. the quality of the school in learning versus
b. how hard the student works and
c. the student's non-school environment
in what the student actually achieves?
I suspect if students don't achieve, part of the problem is that they are not working hard enough. No pain no gain.
Schools should not stand for bullying or harassment any more than our workplaces would. After all, our schools are supposed to prepare kids for the workplace.
If one bullied a homosexual or an Aspie here, they would not be one of us for very much longer.
I am apologizing for the unintended slight against your daughter and my prejudiced imagination that a lot of (disproportionately inner city) students are not working hard enough in school at the middle and high school levels. I am beginning to hate hearing about student achievement so much I talk to the TV set, "work the kids".
From my M.A. in sociology I am somewhat aware that there can be no incentive to learn when there is no immediately visible opportunity to apply education (the only jobs kids can see are low wage service sector jobs, so why the hell bother study, those jobs don't give a damn, in fact those jobs punish you if you have a degree, dare I suggest the adjective "uppity" in how some people might react to education under those circumstances)? So go ahead, play ball or Play Station, what ever.
But you, and your parents motivating you, have to be personally responsible for what you achieve, it isn't just the school.by itself. No, the parents can't do it alone, they need the school, but the school can't do it without a willing student, and preferably, a cooperating parent or two.
On point 6:
Criticial thinking first, individual ideologies, philosophies and religions second. It is important though to discuss ideologies such as racism and look at why they are flawed. "it's not nice" doesn't provide a solid reason and lays the foundations for the first racist with a slightly more detailed argument to come along and convince people. Sadly, "list morality" as I call it is taught almost universally rather than actual ethics. Ethics looks at WHY a certain action is good or bad, morality simply condemns certain things as evil while labelling other things as virtues without much backing.
Critical thinking is the crux - ethics is based on critical evaluation of moral beliefs and values.
Has anyone here ever read B.F. Skinner, Walden II?
No - but I will look out for it - I like the way you express your ideas honestjohn. You make strong statements with few words and you seem to be able to use humour and irony well in your writing.
How important is
a. the quality of the school in learning versus
b. how hard the student works and
c. the student's non-school environment
in what the student actually achieves?
I suspect if students don't achieve, part of the problem is that they are not working hard enough. No pain no gain.
I just picked a random page in this gargantuan thread, and I stumble across this post. GuessWho needs a lecture to help him understand what he has said. There are people with learning disabilities in AFF--and elsewhere.
One of them is yours truly, and I am offended.
I am apologizing for the unintended slight against your daughter and my prejudiced imagination that a lot of (disproportionately inner city) students are not working hard enough in school at the middle and high school levels. I am beginning to hate hearing about student achievement so much I talk to the TV set, "work the kids".
Thank you for the apology. Honestly, I think that a lot of kids do not work hard. But I think a lot of it is borne of frustration that they do not fit the "mold" that public school requires.
That right there was the reason I stopped working hard in high school, and had a depressive breakdown result from it. Once abstract thinking and work efficiency became the emphasis (around 10th and especially 11th grade), I realized I didn't have what "they" wanted from me anymore. It seemed up to 9th grade I was able to "coast" on a couple of minor strengths, but suddenly things got a lot more demanding. I began to feel deficient.
I did eventually get some special ed assistance, but in hindsight--they still didn't know what my particular issues were, or how profound my executive dysfunction was. So, that didn't help too much either.
I'm still appalled that no one ever tried to specify what my learning disablities were. It's still not written on paper. 
It's a shame because unless you know exactly what the disabilities are, there is no way you can look for any strategies to cope with them (if that is possible). Mind you, there is a myriad of learning disabilities and some overlap, but it should be possible to identify one or several main areas of concern.
I think the trouble with Chris (Guess Who) is he has very limited modes of thinking in certain areas and has very much internalised his parents' attitudes without reexamining them critically and seeing if they still apply nowadays. That is not to say he has a lack of intelligence but more of a lack of insight and ability to see individual circumstances.
But you, and your parents motivating you, have to be personally responsible for what you achieve, it isn't just the school.by itself. No, the parents can't do it alone, they need the school, but the school can't do it without a willing student, and preferably, a cooperating parent or two.
That's right... just keep digging a hole, GuessWho.
Perhaps you should stop--if you haven't had to deal with learning disabilities, you cannot really speak for people who do.
Personal responsibility is all well and good, but when the system doesn't care to accomodate learning differences/challenges, what can you do? Just ask them to change the system to accomodate you?.... Work incredibly hard while the gifted don't bother studying and get As anyway?
but the school can't do it without a willing student, and preferably, a cooperating parent or two.
The school has an obligation to educate the child. They need to structure the environment to help the child to achieve. If a child is experiencing ongoing negative feedback - they will lose their enthusiasm for learning. You have to create the right environment for learning to take place. The child needs nurturance and support to develop an attitude of wanting to learn.
I don't often respond positively to Lucie1's posts, but this one really hits the mark. 
The gifted have their own issues, mostly of boredom, but I see your point about the learning disabilities and lack of accommodation for different methods of learning. Public schools seem intent to produce intelligent (but not TOO smart) fodder for the corporate world. Individual differences that are more than minor are not generally welcomed or accommodated.
Yes, my theory needs revising to include learning disabilities. Thanks and sorry.
I'm glad I don't have children. If I had one with LD I might not understand.
Yes, my theory needs revising to include learning disabilities. Thanks and sorry.
I'm glad I don't have children. If I had one with LD I might not understand.
I think you would come to understand Chris- experience is a great teacher, it's how we learn best.
All these political threads are not a proper learning environment for me, that's all I have to say.
AFF has gone through periods like this before, with the intellectual heavyweights all colliding at once, and it's times like these that I feel "left out" or that I don't belong or something.
It's not a pleasant feeling.
