Aspies For Freedom

B"H

Hello.  Thank you for reading my post.  I ordinarily avoid this particular thread, because I consider it a space for the parents.  I wish to honor that space, since it honors a most sacred calling.  However, I will make a few exceptions to my general rule of not posting here.  One of them would be, to call upon your expertise.  I have less of a problem doing that than in giving my own opinion (which I gladly do in other forums).

My problem is this; I have a student whom I assist who is Autistic.  He is not "high-functioning."  Now, to avoid the inevitable controversy that arises around here when these terms are used, let me say that I believe he *COULD* be high-functioning.  I do not use this term as a diagnosis, or as a label, rather as a direct observation of how I have seen him deal with the environment given to him.  This environment has many flaws, and he may be responding as best he can to those flaws.  When I say "low functioning," I use it in a general sense that could apply to anyone who is unable to process his or her environment.  I have DEFINITELY been low-functioning in my life.  I am not entirely sure how high-functioning I am now, to be honest...

In any case, I am not going to qualify my statement.  He is not high-functioning (at this time).  I believe very firmly that this young man was created for a holy purpose:

http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthre...885&page=1

"High functioning" or not, it is my duty to help him find his purpose within himself.  Only he can really know what it is, but I can provide that environment of support necessary for him to do so.  One thing I have been emphasizing is the notion that he does not have to be something for anyone, not other students, not his teachers, and certainly not for me.  He must be who he is.  This seems to have gone a long way to clearing up many of his insecurities.  I hope to continue with this idea.

However, the problem arises when he is around people he considers his friends.  Our young man is very impressionable.  This is almost unusual among Autistics or Asperger  folks, at least in my understanding.  Frankly, I have no reference to understand this in my own experience on the Spectrum.  I might even understand this phenomenon less than a Neuro-typical would understand it.  To be honest, I often wonder if an NT might be better equipped to understand this aspect of understanding his socialization.  Incidentally, the young man has given indirect indications that he may know that I am on the Spectrum.  Also, co-workers seem to suspect it.  As it is, I do not keep it "secret" so much as personal.  

Again, here is where parents come in.  Some of you may have experience with a form of Autism that leaves people susceptible to the influences of others.  In the case of my student, these influences are not good ones.  They need to be countered, or at least checked with some form of meta-cognition.  But, how to do this?  One can suggest that this young man do something, and he will do it.  He will not stop to think that miscreants might be getting a good laugh at his expense when he follows their advice.  He thinks that they are his "friends."  Of course, I do not say that ALL Nt's lack empathy, as that would be a stereotype.  However, some of these students do, indeed, lack empathy.

These junior hooligans are his "friends" even when they insult him. I have noticed something among Neuro-typicals.  I have noticed that many NT's do not seem to understand the power of the spoken or written word in the same way that I do.  When I read something or hear it spoken, I take it very seriously.  Hence, an insult truly means something to me.  It is something that is either to be ignored or addressed, but never to be trivialized.  Therefore, when I see these children act as they do, I cannot understand how they can turn around and sometimes seem like they are truly friendly toward the young man.  My young friend and I may have a similar problem understanding non-verbal cues, or else a philosophy in which truth is a matter of convenience.  Again, as I said before, I do not want to generalize about all NT's, but I will note the differences as I see them.  

It is possible that the antics of some of these teenagers are a matter of normal teenage dynamics.  It is hard to generalize, or to say that all who tease him a little mean him ill.  I do not want to over-react to what might actually be an attempt to include him in the group.  Some *HAVE* attempted to socially include him.  Socialization is one area that is not my strong point, even though understanding it is part of my job at this point.  Therefore, I turn to you, parents, with a sense of humility premised on the limitations of my knowledge.  

How can I address a form of Autism that seems very different than others?  Our friend is very imitative, and suggestible.  He is unlike many of your children who are definitely very strong in who they are.  And, he is unlike me in this respect, and unlike most of my preconceptions about the Spectrum.  I never really "did that whole normal socialization thing."  Thus, I am somewhat at a loss to understand why it is that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  

So, to make a short story long---way too long---what do you suggest here?  How do I begin to turn a negative in to a positive?  Suggestions are welcome.  And, no, things are not out of control.  Things are actually going well.  Yet, they could be better.  So, I turn to you.

Incidentally, the co-worker who suspects me of being on the Spectrum has her own child who is Autistic.  How strange it is that she often uses  certain "techniques" with me.  You know, the folded hands and the like.  She is a sweetheart, but I find it rather annoying.  Our philosophies also clash at times, especially around my hope that the young man will have more intellectual challenges to help him grow.  She seems to want to be in control of what I do, in spite of the fact that she is not in the chain of command.  Of course, that is life in the work world.  I consider her a sweetheart.  If only she'd back off a little...

Thanks for reading this far.  I will leave this thread open to you.

All the best.

mmm - it's really hard ATM without knowing the full situation.

Is the student desperate for a sense of belonging - does he see following more negative influences as a way to gain acceptance and crediblity? Maybe his self esteem has been knocked about - and perhaps he feels if he can build his mana in this way (even though it is negative)  this may be a way to gain acceptance and social standing within the group.

My perception is that having aspergers doesn't take away the feeling of wanting to have friends and be liked - it just makes it a bit harder because of struggles with social skills and social understanding.

His ego may need nurturing - he may need to have help to see what is good about him - or even to find what is good about him.

I think this student of yours needs a set of rules to start with that does not include being told what to do by his peers. They (as NTs) will be able to feel his 'weakness' in deciding what's right or wrong [because he cannot read their minds] and they could thus use him to perform their misdeeds through him.
I think that you'll have to tell him the rules explicitly because he very likely will not pick them up by himself. And you'll sometimes have to repeat it over and over again (depending on his age, of course).

I wonder if a mentor of some sort would be good for him... an older kid or a young adult; somebody not-quite-authority. Or a grandparent, maybe? I got a lot of support from my grandpa when I was still figuring things out.

Is it possible to get a more NT colleague to observe the kids interacting, and get their opinion?  It can be a really hard call, because young men are capable of being a bit obnoxious... I think it's to do with testing boundaries as they mature?  I know a lot of blokes who've grown up into quite respectable men when ten years ago you'd have thought the lot were bound for juvenile detention.  

ATM, is this the kid you were planning to lay down a list of "rules" to, in the belief that neurotype automatically bestows some kind of spiritual vocation?  If so, is it possible that you're a bit miffed that the boy is more interested in hanging with the lads than being some sort of Indigo Child?

I don't think ATM is feeling a bit miffed -- he's his teacher and I get the impression ATM is passsionate about craft.

Sounds like autisim coupled with psychological abuse.

That's a big call given the OP gave no specific examples of what's going on.

I am not entirely clear on your position where you work, so I may be misstating here, but I wonder how it is your position to help him in this?  

Where are his parents?

My daughter is very social and impressionable.  We have had similar issues.  I let her deal with it on her own until she got into some pretty serious trouble because she was misled by the other kid.  Then I put my foot down and told her that she could no longer play with this kid.  I talked to every teacher, the principal, the aides, and told them all.  That was what finally stopped the friendship, and the bad path she could have gone down.

B"H

Update:  Things are progressing, by fits and starts.  As for the person who suggested a more NT colleague to help, I have given that serious consideration.  Some have guessed that I am not a Neuro-typical, but I have not really shared that all that much (not really).  It is best to leave my story out, and focus on the young man.  It is his story that counts, not mine.

Interestingly, after reflecting on my experiences on AFF, I want to thank the Forum for helping me to broaden my viewpoint  beyond my own experiences.  I know that each of our stories are unique.  Many of you have had experiences that I have not had, and they may color your perceptions as my experiences do mine.  Thus, I can learn from a diverse tapestry of experiences that form a quilt of greater perception.

Thank you all for the learning experience.  Please carry on with this thread, as this is all helpful.

All the best.

B"H

Oh, and incidentally, I have a funny story.  I had the test waved in order to obtain my position since I had already passed another test.  I looked at the study guide for the test that I would have had to take in order to obtain my position.  I noticed a mathematical error.

The question was, "If you roll two dice, what are the chances of getting a 4?"  Their answer was 1/6.  Now, they explained the question to me very clearly.  I was told that "four" included either one four, or two fours, for two dice.  I told them that the actual answer was 11/36.  This is the correct answer, if we are considering two dice and excluding all non-four answers for both dice.

1-[(5/6)^2]=1-(25/36)=11/36.

Well, they denied it to the hilt.  But, then I went to the webpage and the question seemed to change to something vague.  Obviously, the District could not afford to be seen as being corrected by some lowly employee!  But, the question changed anyway.

Incidentally, a similar thing happened with the Monty Hall problem.  You remember?  We have three doors, behind one being a pot of gold and the other two being duds.  We have one shot to get the pot of gold.  As we begin to choose door number one, one of the other doors open revealing a dud.  Let's say it's door number 3 that opens.  Now, we two doors with the pot of gold being in one or the other.  Should we continue to open door number one or move over to door number 2?

Well, the scientists and mathematicians all said that the odds of each are 50/50.  However, the truth is that we should move over to door number 2.  Door number 2 has a 2/3 chance of being the correct answer, while door number one has a one-third chance.  

The reason is clear if we had ten doors instead of three.  One door has the pot of gold, and nine have the duds.  We point at door number one, and eight doors open showing duds.  We are then left with door number one and, let's say door number two (to keep it simple), after excluding eight doors with the duds.  Well, it's obvious that we should go with door 2.  There was a 9/10 probability of the gold being in doors 2-10.  However, now that 9/10 probability is concentrated in door number 2 since all the others doors between 2 and 10 were opened, showing duds.  Door number 1 had only 1/10 probability of having the gold from the beginning, and that same probability remains.  In a sense, there is a hidden bias in the problem that would *only* leave us with a 50/50 chance if:

1) The gold had been yanked from behind the wall and randomly re-positioned in either door 1 or 2

2) There were a possibility that door number one *COULD* have been opened, but was not

Since 1 and 2 are both excluded possibilities, we can see that door number 2 is the better choice.  With three doors, it is slightly harder to see, but the same math applies.

What's my point? The scientists and mathematicians all fought this obvious truth.  They were proven wrong.  So it is that sometimes a person who is ordinary can see things a little differently.  So it is with me.  I do not claim that my perspective is the only truth, or "better."  I just think that I might have a perspective on the problems of young people on the Spectrum that might be a little different from an NT.  I still value the idea of having an NT colleague.  (Good idea!!!!!!!)  However, I do not think that if I see a truth that I should somehow sublimate it to workplace politics.

It is about the young man, not me.  If taking a chance is what gets him the help he needs to be better functioning (we'll leave the "cure" versus "anti-cure" thing aside, because both positions are abstractions to me at this point), then I'm game for it.  However, I still value your opinions, along with those of my NT colleagues, because I do know that I have blind spots.  I have difficulties understanding certain social cues (perhaps including the delicacies of correcting the mathematical errors of the boss).  I know that I must be truly humble, and willing to learn.

And, yes, some people have figured out that I am on the Spectrum.  I am not sure how, but they have.  This may create....interesting issues.  One of them is a key culture clash over the question of academics versus socialization.  I believe in socialization, but I also value academics to a greater degree than certain colleagues in Special Education do.  I believe that it is immoral to say that a person *cannot* learn.  They may consider themselves "advocates", but I believe that being an advocate means believing in potential.  I do not besmirch their motives, which I believe are good.  I simply question some of their assumptions.

I also question addressing a fellow adult as though he were a child, but that may be part of the school milieu at times and not something directed at me in particular.  We live in interesting times here in California.  Schools are shutting down.  It is time for change.  Real change.  I pray that it comes soon.

I now rest for the Sabbath.

All the best.

Hi,
   If the child is like my Aspie, this might help.  My Aspie can't read body language, figures of speech, and inferences.  Thus doesn't understand Social games or why someone would lie.  He takes people at their word and can't tell from looking at someone whether they are kidding or serious, which unfourtunately leads to a higher incidence of bullying.    I have taught him that if another child asks him to do something that doesn't sound right or  feel right, he should check it with an adult first.  Not only does it prevent him from putting himself in a bad situation but those taunting and bullying stop rather quickly when they realize the adults in charge are on to them! What those other kids are doing is taunting and bullying and it should not be tolerated!  Hope this helps!   CJ

Prove it--show me the REAL PROBABILITY MATH behind it, not your misunderstanding of probability.

The second event's probability is INDEPENDENT of the first event's, no matter how much you may be utterly ignorant of probability math.

Show the equations.  That is what governs the scenario.

That is NOT HOW PROBABILITY WORKS!!!!  Go back to elementary school math and do it all over until you understand how probability and statistics work.

No, you are merely ignorant of how probability works.  You have PROVEN NOTHING other than your own ignorance and possibly delusions regarding probability.

I do this stuff for a living.

You come across as an angry, angry individual. Also an incorrect individual in this case.

From wikipedia:

As per above, four out of six possible scenarios result in the "switching" option winning the car, making it a 2/3 probability.

The Monty Hall problem is a famous example of why intuitive assumptions of probability should be avoided.

To understand this concept better, I'd recommend that you "Go back to elementary school math and do it all over until you understand how probability and statistics work.", especially if you "do this for a living".

You know someone tried to mak eme swallow that probability question before - I really disagreed with the 2/3rd and was sure it was 50/50.... because of the fact that the past has nothing to di with anything.  Don't mind me - I am very pleased now as I feel much better.  I never could go along with the other rationale.  No amount of convincing. Thanks!