Aspies For Freedom

JB is a...how to put this...

JB is a bigoted, offensive, mouthy cock, who needs a good slapping.

he also goes by the name "Foresam", which you might be familiar with.
if you really want to know, take a look at Timelords wiki.

I wonder how well recieved personal attacks on anti-cure supporters are viewed by the anti-cure side? I think about as well as attacks on pro-cure supporters are seen by the pro-cure side. I wonder also about how allegations of bribery, and other criminal activities are seen?

Do you just want to sling mud back and forth, or do you want to make a difference?

This kind of crap is really selling yourselves short.

I wouldnt hit it. except with a shovel.

The world isn't so black and white, BobB.
"Vast majority" this or that, is what you're doing still fine? Is it still moral? You justify that it's just venting, but that excuse won't work if pro-cure people used it to justify one of their vents. It's a hypocritical argument, if you accuse them of being ignorant and disrespectful based on their venting. Think about it; Is this any better than the ignorance and disrespect that you feel is unjustifiable? Is trying to justify it in your case any different from them trying to justify things in the same way?

You accuse those who want a cure of being a vast majority of non-autistics, people who don't really understand autistics.

On the flip side, the smart pro-cure aspies and Auties don't speak up about it anymore, because they know it gets them insulted, ostracized, mocked, ridiculed, and subject to no holds barred harassment. I've seen autistic people who hold pro-cure views come and go, I've seen aspies who wouldn't mind a cure or wanta cure just not posting in these kinds of topics, because they know that if they do, they will get dragged over the proverbial coals... by the few people they ever really shared their autism with, the people they know who are the ones who also have ASDs.

One autistic woman wanted a cure, and now she's being ridiculed by strangers, people who never even met her. Why? She doesn't want to be the way she is, she wants to be cured.
Is it so wrong to not want to be autistic? Is it?

Respect can't be demanded, it can't be taken, it can't be stolen, forced, or bought. You don't get respect for being autistic because you should; That's plain laziness and selfishness. All the "normal" people, they need to earn respect, through their words, their actions, and their attitudes. Are we then deserving to be respected because we have Autism, and not because we're good people? Are we to become so self-centered that we think the world owes us? That's the way that parents spoil children rotten, by giving them the things that they don't deserve.

I'm not saying that being autistic means you don't deserve any respect, but I am saying that you can't expect it to fall into your lap or be handed to you. If you want it, you earn it. I want it, and I earn it. I earn it from my friends, my neighbors, or even total strangers.

What you're doing? That earns scorn and derison, unless you're among like-minded individuals, people who seem to share a sense of entitlement, or simply want to let off some steam in a negative way.

You don't earn respect by mocking others, by degrading people because of their beliefs, by insulting mothers, silencing criticism, attacking anyone who doesn't toe the opinionated line(the one that you know is the "right" one), altering views and spreading black PR.

Timelord, that it was justification for mocking, insulting, and ridiculing strangers out of anger and spite... Well, I believe you wrote something about her, no? I understand why you would agree with any justifications for personal attacks and outright slander.

M, I don't think that's the point, whether or not she reads AFF forum posts. But it makes no difference to what it is; Biased, insulting, libellous filth and muck being slung out of spite, anger, frustration, or simple ignorance.

Is it not filth because the person being ridiculed isn't present to read it, is unaware of it? I think it is.

Tenaciouscj, TheZach, Timelord, BobB, Natalie, isn't this kind of petty and vindictive mockery and slurs beneath you? Are you capable of responding to her only by insulting her? You can't counter bad with bad; As the old adage goes, two wrongs don't make a right.

Are you petty, spiteful, vindictive individuals, ignorant, or are you ready to act mature and do something worthwhile about Jenny McCarthy rather than just insult her?

morning_after, do you think that they'll change their minds if we insult them enough?

Personal insults like, brainless blonde bimbo, for one. I think that's fair rude, don't you?

The people on the anti-cure side need to get their acts together regarding personal insults and deliberate attacks and messages of war against pro-cure groups, even curebies. You can't claim a moral high ground when you're as stained as those you're fighting; We can fight for the public view, but the pro-cure groups are pretty big, well-known, and have lots of money and support, no? Anti-cure just can't win against all the celebrity, money, and sheer numbers of pro-cure.

If we ensure that both sides become completely opposed, closed off, and deadlocked, anti-cure is done for. That's why the anti-cure movement needs to stay above this base garbage; Otherwise, pro-cure people will oppose simply for the sake of opposition, and won't be swayed by any arguments in a course that the anti-cure movement was formed to face: The elimination of autistic culture, of autistic people, of autism.

earthmonkey, solid points, great arguments. If we make these reasonable people opposed to the anti-cure movement smply out of a disregard for us based on our own negative attitudes and actions, like what's going on with Jenny McCarthy.

I agree; A topic for venting needs to be where it is appropriate. Where it is known that it's not being taken seriously, and is not part of a serious point of view. Of course, in some instances, these are serious points of view, which is negative. And about first impressions, I agree completely. If all they see are threads involving things like this, or like overtly biased topics, they'll chalk us down to being the other point of view of similar pro-cure sites.

I think it's come down to two groups of anti-cure people; Attackers and equality promoters. Sometimes the two intermingle, and you get people who mix the two. You'll get people who are autistic elitists, and other negatively focused people from the attackers, and you'll have people who promote that they're just different, and other positively focused from the equality promoters. Problem is, the negatives are ruining the positives with stuff like this.

Pita bread? I don't think I've had it many times... I think I'll look that video up.

Well, in closing, I guess that it's up to the individual to govern themselves; I can't stop anyone from being a certifiable jerk, but I can name them fo what they are. Tolerance for pro-cure beliefs from autistics, is the first step to the examination of those beliefs by those who hold them.

Who was she?

, your comments, insinuate that she's in the pay of someone to believe what she does. Are you paid to hold your beliefs?

honestjohn, it's the litany against fear, from the book Dune. There's also a movie, and several spin-offs. It was a pretty popular science fiction, back in it's day, I believe. I enjoyed reading it.

But as for good out of the differences... Call me pessimistic, but debating ideas is a far cry from debating a person. Especially when people are so hostile towards her, to the point of open mockery and personal insults.

morning_after, that's a big part of what I'm saying. Of course, telling people that they're being rude can be seen as being rude, which is fair ironic. I actually found something pretty interesting; It's about anger.
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/anger.htm

I just thought it would be interesting to share, especially after you said: "No one is convinced of anything if they feel like they are being attacked."

BobB, the promotion of one race over another is the promotion of ne race over another. If it were blacks who took whites as slaves, would the argument work only in reverse?

If we're not promoting equality, we're promoting superiority. Look at it this way; If the roles are reversed, and blacks become the oppressors, will it be right for the whites to demand equality? If you follow through on the path your argument took, it would be. After all, depending on their race, they are either demeaning or resenting, and when it comes down to it, neither are positive.

Did the blacks, having won the same written rights as whites, immediately decide to promote black superiority? No. They, having been the oppressed, had no desire to become the thing that they hated. Would you become what you hate to "win?"

Are we cold and heartless enough to take those white seats over the pro-cure side? Are we willing to become oppressors?
The resenter is an oppressor, if they are resented. The oppressor is a resenter, if they are the oppressed.
Equality isn't an exchange of oppression and resentment; It's the balancing of the scales.

On to the topic of cure:

Now, the gay comparison isn't valid here. Homosexuality is NOT, in any circumstance, a neurobiological disorder. It's not a disease, it's not diagnosable, it's not a valid comparison for talk of a cure.

Furthermore, your argument is a logical fallacy. You say, a cure is fine for you, the one who wants it. But you flat out openly say that you are absolutely opposed to the creation of a cure, making whether or not I want a cure a moot point in the face of the fac that, in your eyes, a cure may never be made.

Is it then a lie to tell me that I may seek a cure as I see fit, yet directly oppose the method through which I would be cured? You tell me I may use crutches to walk, and then you tell me that crutches will never be.

And by denying a cure to those who seek it, is it not the same forced control as forcing a cure on those who don't seek it? Those who want a cure are a threat to your existence, as you are a threat to them.

Don't tell me I can be cured, when you will not let a cure come to pass. Don't lie to me.

Respect breeds respect. If you won't respect the pro-cure side, they will not respect you. If they will not respect you, you will not respect them. Do you see the folly?

Look within your own ranks before pointing your finger at your enemy. I'm not talking about her, or the pro-cure movement; I'm talking about the anti-cure movement. A fault is a fault, no matter who commits it.

Are you being serious? Are you not responsible and accountable for your own words? Are you not insulting someone, be damned if her public persona is that of a dancing bear? You are still the one to choose whether or not to throw the mud.

It is high time to do that. But you're not going to do that if you look like a pot calling a kettle black. If the anti-cure movement doesn't shape up and present a clean and mature public image, it'll become a mass media myth melee, if you'll forgive the alliteration. And anti-cure is a grassroots movement, as opposed to the combined organization of the pro-cure movement.

Sometimes... Maybe in military conflicts, but not in a fight for people's good regards. Today, in this day and age, the only way to win the fight, is to win the people. And you won't win them with such tactics.

I believe you misunderstand my last post; I mean that in order to get people to stop and think about their own beliefs, is the acceptance and desire to understand those beliefs. You won't cause as many to examine their beliefs by mocking theirs; But you will if you understand what they believe.

As for the right to be cured; Again, do not lie to me. If the anti-cure movement will not permit a cure, then to say that those who want a cure are free to seek it, is dishonest.

Timelord, if she acts in such a manner, she only hurts her own cause. If you add to it by responding in kind, then you're hurting your own cause as surely as she hurts hers. The only difference is, if it comes down to pro-cure and anti-cure being deadlocked because both are in the mud, anti-cure is going to be drowned beneath the larger, more powerful, richer pro-cure movement.

If you let her harm their image, good. If you draw attention by being a negative to a negative, people will assume that both sides are like that, and they'll go for the one who say "cure this," rather than "no cure."

Her celebrity will hurt pro-cure, if she acts in such a manner. But by mocking her, by sinking down to such a level, it only makes her seem like a victim, pulls the attention from her behaviour to the response to it.

Natalie... Well, in all seriousness, I'm not exactly sure how to respond... Congratulations, you stumped me. I guess it is pretty late, though.

As for Wilky, I think it's best we let topics like that lie. I'm sure Gareth and Amy don't want the topic brought up again. And Wilky has left AFF; I don't think it would be quite right to talk about her after she left. It feels wrong to me.

Are you serious? Reacting with anger is only going to hurt the anti-cure movement. An angry response is only going to make the anti-cure movement look as bad as the way she was acting!

It's a campaign of positive PR to fight back, not more base mudslinging.

Joker

As valiant you are for post a very TL;DR post which I bearly slogged throught. I hope you know the audiance your lecturing to? Gung ho-curbie decking-NO CUR PLZ Autisitcs? Seriously? I don't know why you even bother chatising everyone that like to poke fun a very large zit of hollywood elite?

Good god? What are you Mom? Jay-zus! Joker if you want to preach good PR skills and positive protrayal, rant to Autism Speaks. They need lessons in good PR. Not us.

Your daily dose of surreal satire.

BW

Timelord, Mudslinging creates BAD news. It creates the WRONG kind of PR.
Throw that mud, she'll look at her blouse, and the indignation will set in. People won't see it as self-defense, they'll see it as the opposite side taking a swing. All she'd have to do is speak about "those mean aspies" and all the horrible things they're saying, and bang, she's the victim, we're the bad guys. It's quite simple really. Someone says things which anger someone else, though it seems innocent enough to the onlookers. And when that hurt party gives them what for, they play the victim. Instant moral high ground. Serves one pro-cure group per application.

Is that the kind of PR you want?

Making it a war of attrition is what will lose the fight. Guerrila, the hearts and minds of the people, that's what will win. And you don't get their hearts and minds through being a tough guy, by being unfeeling. You get their hearts by appealing to their better natures, by promoting equality, by being positive and by actually acting on things like what Jenny McCarthy said by voicing your offense, not by offending back.

BardWolf, that was... Surreal.

Hm... What am I, your mom? Well, I feel like one, to be honest. Telling the kids not to say nasty things back, but to show that the nasty people are nasty.

Without any criticism, the anti-cure side will become like any self-righteous group of people, and they'll consider themselves immune to mistakes.
Mistakes like mudslinging in kind, making themselves look petty, rather than the smart choice, which is to show that what she said was offensive, and many people in the autistic community are deeply offended by such comments. This is just like in a court; The jury will be sympathetic to the victim, but not if they commited the same crime in response to the original crime. If people demean autistics, call them out for making disrespectful, rude, ableist comments. This kind of reaction here? Major negative image.

It's a matter of whether or notthe anti-cure movement wants to succeed, or wants to be martyrs. Now's not a time for being tough and fighting back the same way; Now's the time to show that we're offended, to show that we feel that it's wrong, and to show that we will not sink to that level.

But hey, if they want to roll in the mud, it's their choice.

Ummm last time I checked. This is a fourm. So your whole court analogy is irrelevent. Anybody who takes this kind of *** seriously needs their head scaned. You can go on and on about good PR and positive imaging all you want Joker. It doesn't make sense. In here, it's free game. We don't have a image to uphold or anything. A forum is equilvant the smokers lounge in the School Cafeteria. Not the Press Box on CNN

RISE UP AND FIGHT CURBIE OPRESSORS!! [/enddickery]

Oh jeez now we need a mob of chanting autistics and a march down DC.

Fat Chance. If there is one think I learned about the Hollywood elite. They don't raise their kids. I think it's all an act, I mean most of the time Evan is with nannies, Jenny only sees him like once a week...

Feh I think it's all a game

I said think not I know.

I am allow to make assumtions based on common knowledge

The lines between the oppressor and resenter vanish, due to the flow of "power." When one holds the power over the other, they become the oppressor in kind.

In the war of how the world is shaped, it must be fought to create the future we desire. We must shape our entire struggle to be one that the public feels about, that people actually care about. Otherwise... This will be the shape of it.

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."

That is what you say; That is not the intent of a majority of people. No one will support genocide, when it will come to the blood on their hands. Eugenics interfering in births? If that is what the majority of the world finds acceptable, we can hardly defeat their beliefs with ours, unless they decide themselves what is right and wrong, and decide it is wrong.

And not all people who want a cure are out for blood. You believe the cure will be in blood, in death; They hope to have it end in enabling, in freedom from things that make us unhappy. They believe in our welfare through a cure, not in hatred and disgust. Thus, they would not administer the feared "fatal" cure, but develop one that is not a death. They will take as long as neccesary, too; They don't want us dead.

I wonder how the gay community feels about being compared to autistics?

Reality check; Autism is a neurobiological disorder. Until it's proven not to be, it is unwise to make assumptions against it. There are no studies to determine if autism is a disorder that prove it is not.

What are you on about? OF COURSE pre-natal testing doesn't do anything for people already born; But is that the only, single, solitary direction Autism Speaks has taken? Is every charitable donation solely purposed for that research? Nay; It's not as big a priority as you assume it. You're taking the absolute WORST parts of the pro-cure movement, and dismissing any redeeming qualities on that basis.

There is no cure for autism. That is why they are trying to find one.
There is not likely to be one any time soon. But there will be one eventually, make no mistake.
You envision genocide and extermination, a final solution, as a cure. You portray it as a final solution.
I repeat, that moral individuals, will not allow the administering of a cure that will harm someone, let alone simply sit by and watch a genocide.

They put their goals as politely as possible, and as for liars, to tell people that yes, they can seek a cure, and then ensure that one will never come to be... You are to them, as they are to you. They see a liar, and you see a liar. Neither try to understand, and only want to learn enough to make a convincing case that the other is "evil."

That does show her in a negative light. People won;t take that kind of behaviour as appropriate, and so oppose her cause simply because they disliked what she did. If all these people find on the other side is yet more asinine behaviour, like mockery and insults, they'll lose that sympathy, they'll disrespect both equally, and they'll go for the fancy talk of curing something, due to the simple thought that curing something is better than not curing something.

This could be why so many have a challenge understanding what to do, to properly react; You don't understand the way people work. If you did, I wouldn;t be telling you why what you're doing is counter-productive; You'd know better than to cut off your nose to spite your face, to act so basely, eye for an eye, and only destroy people's opinions of the pro-cure movement that their mistakes attract.

Timelord, no, you cannot answer that. Not honestly, at least.

I don't take a side at the moment; Both pro-cure and anti-cure disgust me at the moment. I'm more independent. I used to blog for autistic rights, but that's been put on hold after harassment from no less than eight people, acting on the behalf of... Well, let's just say, Timelord isn't exactly the person to talk about myself with.

I prefer to take control of my own body; It's mine, I deserve to use it as I see fit. If I don't want to stim in public, I won't. If I don't want to rock, sway, or headbang in public, I won't. It's my own personal choice, and if that's not fine with others, it's not their call how I live MY life.

I know enough about prejudice to last a lifetime; After all, I've tasted plenty from Timelord: Just read his post over about what he's preaching to me; If that's not a prejudice about me like gay people and great fashion sense, then do I have to be seterotypically white because that's my skin colour?

I know plenty about having the s*** kicked out of me, is that practical experience in prejudice? If not, I've got a laundry list of incidents where I've been humiliated, ostracized, singled out, and of course, being stereotyped for my aspergers.
I can't seem to figure out which is worse; Being stereotyped by ignorant people who don't understand aspergers, or being stereotyped by people who have aspergers.

Anyways, do as YOU see fit, Bob. Trust me, you're the one who should be making the decisions, not him.

Timelord, that's bad attention. If you, oh, I don't know, killed people, that'd get PR. Bad PR. If you slander people, that'll get bad PR too. If you feel like making a positive impact on the way autistics are seen, I'd reccomend against that kind of thing. Maybe you should try a public informational demonstration, and promote some positive ideals; Might even make the news if people call it in, wink wink.

You get what I'm saying? The people who like that kind of news are only there for entertainment, mainly. The serious people watch serious news, and those are the stations to go to.

BobB, sorry you feel that way.

I guess it's true though; If you're pro-cure, you're fair game. No rights, no value, just a worthless, useless piece of trash. Ironic, that I was once an anti-cure advocate; Back then, oh, I was popular here, on other forums, on my blog. I should have stayed ignorant and blissful.

Lucie, Timelord; If she's slinging the mud, she's got the dirt on her hands, and if there's no mud forthcoming, only polite statements of disagreement... She's going to get nothing but the way she looks, in the public's perception. But a full out mud-fight? That'll just make it a level ground, where we're opposing sides, not attacker and victim.

Who'll look the better? The anti-cure side. Is that not the goal, to gain public support, to ensure the fulfillment of autistic rights, to "win?"

Morning_after, I took their examples, nothing more. But that is how I envision autistic rights; The way some parts of the anti-cure movement are acting, they're more like the Black Panthers, in comparison. The militancy, as well.

Anyways, this has turned out to be another long, long post... Sorry.

Did Joker just invoke Godwin's Law?

FAIL

DING!

we have a winner!