Aspies For Freedom - Problem is, it's not valid..

Saint Wrote:

Batman55 Wrote:

In another thread, you folks have said my creativity is an indication that I have intelligence, despite my claims to the contrary. Tonight I just realized my creativity is probably the result of very slow-processing speed, executive dysfunction, and learning challenges... all of which, combined, results in me taking significantly longer time to "capture" details than the average person.

Do you know that people with asperger's often are much better at book learning than picking up details quickly in a classroom.

As far as executive dysfunction goes you write far too well, and far too clearly for this to be a problem.

I am very sleep deprived, angry, and feeling very unhealthy at the moment so I won't have the brainpower to explain myself in detail. But I can say this: I'm afraid you've got that wrong. If I feel better by the time my nightly routine comes along tomorrow, you may have the explanation.

For what it's worth, if you haven't figured it out, I stick by a very strict, tight routine that I do not deviate from and that includes visiting AFF among other websites, every night.

Saint Wrote:

Rather than quote or misquote the rest of what you've stated I leave you with this one word, "Depression".

I am feeling depressed at this very moment.  I've asked someone on this forum how they can live abroad in strange countries (as a journalist of all things!) and talk to any number of people from different cultures, learn different things on the fly, going through constant change... contrasting it with my difficulty in knowing the ropes of the same town I've lived in for 26 years, and my constant desire to stick by predictable routine.  And wondering how it could be possible that someone who supposedly has the same condition I have--AS--can be a journalist who travels around the world at will, alone and by themselves, with apparently no need for routine.  Just... how can it be?

The answer they gave me was they had a childhood where their Aspie traits were not tolerated ("beaten out of them"), evenutally thrown around into different foster homes, and then forced to pay their way alone.  This person told me they were fortunate to "not have had the chance to wallow in Aspie traits" and therefore got used to frequent changes in routine.  And so on.

My story:  The only thing I knew, back then--as a child--was that I had to have my way, I had to have my social oddities tolerated (and they were more accepted than punished), and I had to have my specific routines and interests and I had to be satisfied.  And I got my way.  My parents spoiled me.

Now if the opposite had occurred--if I had been through a much more chaotic childhood, roughed up, or moved around to different homes and locations--is it likely that I'd be a strong human being now, who can handle challenges as they come?

To think that having a nightmare of a childhood would make me less of an Aspie now, and a better human being instead, is a scary thought...

Wondering1 Wrote:

Batman55 Wrote:

Saint Wrote:

Batman55 Wrote:

In another thread, you folks have said my creativity is an indication that I have intelligence, despite my claims to the contrary. Tonight I just realized my creativity is probably the result of very slow-processing speed, executive dysfunction, and learning challenges... all of which, combined, results in me taking significantly longer time to "capture" details than the average person.

Do you know that people with asperger's often are much better at book learning than picking up details quickly in a classroom.

As far as executive dysfunction goes you write far too well, and far too clearly for this to be a problem.

I am very sleep deprived, angry, and feeling very unhealthy at the moment so I won't have the brainpower to explain myself in detail. But I can say this: I'm afraid you've got that wrong. If I feel better by the time my nightly routine comes along tomorrow, you may have the explanation.

For what it's worth, if you haven't figured it out, I stick by a very strict, tight routine that I do not deviate from and that includes visiting AFF among other websites, every night.

Saint Wrote:

Rather than quote or misquote the rest of what you've stated I leave you with this one word, "Depression".

I am feeling depressed at this very moment.  I've asked someone on this forum how they can live abroad in strange countries (as a journalist of all things!) and talk to any number of people from different cultures, learn different things on the fly, going through constant change... contrasting it with my difficulty in knowing the ropes of the same town I've lived in for 26 years, and my constant desire to stick by predictable routine.  And wondering how it could be possible that someone who supposedly has the same condition I have--AS--can be a journalist who travels around the world at will, alone and by themselves, with apparently no need for routine.  Just... how can it be?

The answer they gave me was they had a childhood where their Aspie traits were not tolerated ("beaten out of them"), evenutally thrown around into different foster homes, and then forced to pay their way alone.  This person told me they were fortunate to "not have had the chance to wallow in Aspie traits" and therefore got used to frequent changes in routine.  And so on.

My story:  The only thing I knew, back then--as a child--was that I had to have my way, I had to have my social oddities tolerated (and they were more accepted than punished), and I had to have my specific routines and interests and I had to be satisfied.  And I got my way.  My parents spoiled me.

Now if the opposite had occurred--if I had been through a much more chaotic childhood, roughed up, or moved around to different homes and locations--is it likely that I'd be a strong human being now, who can handle challenges as they come?

To think that having a nightmare of a childhood would make me less of an Aspie now, and a better human being instead, is a scary thought...

That is exactly why I think that state (public) schooling is preferable to home-schooling. That is why I believe, however ruthlessly, that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Even the most negative of experiences can result in wonderful outcomes. My parents were fairly abusive and my childhood largely unpleasant. I do not think that this is a good thing. I do believe that there should be a mediation, with neither brand of parenting allowed to ossify in the process. Tough love is exactly that: it is truer than relentless attention or forgiveness. We should not have to conform, but similarly we should not be left to suckle at the teet for too long. If you grow up without any sense of independence, struggle etc...then you are in a dangerous position. It's not a hopeless one, but the only way to overcome it is to immerse yourself in reality. Reality, whether NT or not, is not the subsumption into a personal and insular world. All human beings require -some- form of socialisation and participation.

Don't write s**t to me that says "suckle at the teat for too long." You are really pissing me off.

energeia Wrote:

Quote:

Now if the opposite had occurred--if I had been through a much more chaotic childhood, roughed up, or moved around to different homes and locations--is it likely that I'd be a strong human being now, who can handle challenges as they come?

This is an interesting question.
As I've gotten older, and especially in the last few years as I've been reflecting on my life, I've found myself "reframing" my attitude towards my childhood. Pertinent to this topic, I'm now grateful for aspects of my parents' tough love approach.  For sure, I felt like they didn't understand me and I was pushed into situations and activities that I hated, which reinforced my sense of their cluelessness.  BUT, there were good sides to not having been allowed to "wallow in aspieness" (although that's not how it would have been described at the time).

I felt like I had no choice but to go out into the world and be independent.  There was no fall-back person or relationship to take care of me.

Batman...I'm torn regarding you.  There are times that I want to address you with all my various thoughts about you and your situation.  You get the award as the poster who irritates me the most. But I don't know how to do this in a way that would be both compassionate and helpful.  Your situation scares me on your behalf.  I feel like you're setting yourself up for a life that's even more difficult than the life you already have.  I find myself mentally screaming STOP!  CUT!  QUIT THE GAMES!

And yet....I don't know your true situation, so who am I to judge it?  So I can ask questions:

What is your heart's true desire?
How can somebody help your grow towards realizing this?

What do you want from us?  Those who see your desperate need for validation and who get rebuffed when the validation that's offered isn't acceptable to you?

Participation and socialization is optional for me. I am allowed to have this thought.

I spill my guts and say "would it have been better if I was kicked around and given tough love and more of that s**t during childhood" hoping the answer would be what I was looking for--that I wouldn't be a stronger person necessarily--and I just get kicked in the guts even more.

F**k off.

GuessWho Wrote:

The only flaw in the reasoning, Wondering1, is that what doesn't kill you only makes the survivors stronger. The challenges of Asperger have driven many of us to suicide.

A moment of silence for those who aren't here today.

This is what I was looking for.

I know in my heart if I was "brutalized more" during childhood or adolescence, I would have killed myself.

And then people like energeia and Wondering1 saying "good for all! the more s**t you go through, the better!"

And then I realize that energeia is thinking "oh thats why Batman is so pathetic now! his parents never pushed him!"

*tears hair out*

energeia Wrote:

What do you want from us? Those who see your desperate need for validation and who get rebuffed when the validation that's offered isn't acceptable to you?

To never see you in any thread of mine, ever again.

energeia Wrote:

Some things truly are not within one's capacities but other things are, if one is willing to risk, be disciplined, and have desire. It can be hard to figure out which is which, I think, when faced with limitations or blockages.

Batman, I see you as being relentlessly self-defeating. It's as if you've formed your entire identity around being defective. I do think it's possible, from the perspective of a different framework of self-identity, to see possibilities rather than it being all limitations.

I'm sorry. I'm just burning in anger so you might want to forget that I asked you not to post in my threads anymore. That was the "insanely angry" version of myself--not the usual version.

energeia Wrote:

Those who see your desperate need for validation and who get rebuffed when the validation that's offered isn't acceptable to you?

Because the validation is oftentimes little more than a symbol that says "you should have more confidence in whatever abilities you have" rather than being accurate. The real world does not see someone who graduates high school at age 19, and cannot handle community college classes, and who has almost no talents--as intelligent. To believe otherwise is to delude oneself.

anbuend Wrote:

I'll just note that my childhood was far from pleasant, and I was expected to do what everyone else did. This did not result in super-functionality on my part. It just resulted in utter confusion when I would go to do something and it would just not happen. Over and over.

I'll note that anbuend is "generalized as LFA" and therefore it's likely seen--at this point in time, anyway--that her deficits are not an excuse for immaturity or lack of effort.  Her problems are understandable and it is accepted that she has limitations.  (if I've said anything wrong or offensive, anbuend, please let me know because I am trying to be tactful.)

But allegedly whatever autistic spectrum thing I have is "too mild."  I am very verbal, write very well, speak very well and can talk to most people without difficulty (although, my social anxiety is pretty bad at times.)  I also seem to behave normally--a lot of the time.

So of course--and I see that AFF feels this way too--the deficits I am talking about probably do not exist.

Because I am not LFA or anything along those lines, undoubtedly if I was pushed harder in childhood or in my current situation, I'd be better off for it.  Undoubtedly!--the more pain for an AS person on the mild end of the spectrum, the better.  I speak well, write well, and seem to behave normally--so of course, the limitations I write of are an excuse to remain an eternal child and avoid adulthood inevitably.  (this paragraph may contain sarcasm)

I remember somebody here said that if you are HFA, your deficits are ignored, or assumed that they do not exist.  I wonder if there's something to that...

Is it conceivable that some people with AS may have hardwired deficits?  And that I might be one of them?

Bella Wrote:

Batman - re: the hard childhood thing. I had a not so normal childhood witnessing domestic abuse and being scared of my father. I was also considered a failure in Maths by him. He mentions it still. He was wonderful at maths, a natural and tried teaching me and my brother... it wasn't the nice patient kind of teaching. I have problems still with pressure situations and I think it might be to do with that. Even in a friendly scrabble game, if people are watching me and I'm expected to add up something I really struggle and sometimes my mind even goes blank.

I also grew up in a home where there were often turtles in our bath, puppies in the laundry and chickens and other animals in our backyard. We lived in suburbia and I was teased in school because of how I smelt... I had no friends until Grade 4 when I met a nice nerdy girl.

So no, I don't think a bad childhood would make things better. In fact I think some of my self confidence problems come from back then. I still have problems with authority figures and my initial reaction when someone is putting me down is just to be submissive until I can get away, sometimes my mind just goes blank and doesn't think of the standing up for myself option until after the situation.

I mostly had an easy childhood except for my father's yelling. My father verbally abused my mother--and all of us--and it very easily sent me into meltdowns. I am also very afraid of authority figures. I still cannot have a normal conversation with my father.

His yelling did not help me--however ruthless it was... it hurt more than it helped. With an AS person, sometimes the things that hurt, actually hurt.... rather than "make you stronger" as it would be with NT children. (I'm guessing that's the idea, anyway)

I wonder if "Wondering1" is surprised to hear that "ruthless upbringing" does not work for everyone.

Wondering1 Wrote:

GuessWho Wrote:

The only flaw in the reasoning, Wondering1, is that what doesn't kill you only makes the survivors stronger. The challenges of Asperger have driven many of us to suicide.

A moment of silence for those who aren't here today.

You take it too far. It is a quote. It is a phrase. It is not meant to be taken literally. I do not believe that we should treat children callously. I recognise that some may need more help than others. The ultimate goal, however, is not normalisation but rather adaptation. It need not destroy the personality in the process. I did not mean enormous kicks to the gut, perhaps little ones. If you let a child become too dependent...what happens when you are gone? When you are no longer able to help them? I have known this to be the case, where a parent has died in accident or from natural causes...then what? The child is lost. The child may be intellectually sound or gifted, but how is the child to survive in the real and general world if it has not developed the social skills? Not learnt to deal with the good as well as bad? You cannot expect to be allowed to live life easily. Nor should it be cruel and humiliating. It should simply be real.

Perhaps it is a cultural difference, though I doubt it. I was forced to socialise, forced to adapt. My parents were terribly abusive, verbally and often physically. I was forced to do so many things that I hated. I am, in my opinion, for more capable and stronger for it. I came to the point where I wanted to kill myself several times. I did not. There are ways of thinking, even under enormous pressure, that redeem your situation.

Unless I had been sent to some kind of "childhood boot camp," there was not much they could have done for me. My mother did not permit my father to physically abuse me, and there are laws against that here anyway, and it is taken very seriously. I was verbally abused instead, but perhaps unlike Wondering1, all the abuse did was make me worse. Because my parents never knew that they or I have AS (everyone in my family of four is somehow affected by it), they just became confused and eventually unsure of what they could do to me that would work. Because anything they tried, failed.

Force did not work either. You could not "force" me to do anything.

energeia Wrote:

Batman--I and some others tell you things you may not want to hear.  And so you get angry.  It's worth really asking yourself what that anger is about.  What is at the heart of it?

Also, if everyone reinforced your identity of being a victim, would this truly feel validating to you?  How would this help you move forward in your life?

I'll repeat my earlier question:  What is your heart's true desire?

I imagine that any attempt to answer this question may bring up anxiety, fear, grief, anger....lots of scary, hard to deal with, emotions.  These come from  not knowing who one really is or what one really wants.  Or, from knowing this, but believing that one cannot have the heart's desires fulfilled.  Either way, there's suffering involved with asking this question to oneself.  So, there's a natural tendency to avoid, deflect, lash out, numb out--that is, to find strategies that keep pain at a distance.  But these defenses only stall...they don't heal the pain.

Sometimes, the only way to heal from pain is to first truly experience it.

I hope that some true help and grace and support will come to you, Batman.
You appear to me to be in tremendous pain and anxiety.
It's a tough place to be.

I do not know how to answer your question. What is a valid answer like, etc.

I apologize for the earlier lashing out, but to be honest, I was also in the throws of some moodiness for other reasons at that moment.

Batman55 Wrote:

energeia Wrote:

Those who see your desperate need for validation and who get rebuffed when the validation that's offered isn't acceptable to you?

Because the validation is oftentimes little more than a symbol that says "you should have more confidence in whatever abilities you have" rather than being accurate. The real world does not see someone who graduates high school at age 19, and cannot handle community college classes, and who has almost no talents--as intelligent. To believe otherwise is to delude oneself.

It is amazing that still, no one on this site will acknowledge what these simple facts of mine might mean. Lack of intelligence, dare I say it?

I guess everyone is afraid of bursting that artificial bubble of positivity.

Why can't people just see the facts and give me what I want. I need to know I am defective... and I will need outside parties to confirm it.

Is it too much to ask for such confirmation?

Bella Wrote:

You already know why people won't agree with you... because it's not true. Because although you may not be intelligent in certain types of intelligence, you are in fact intelligent in others. I guess you've had a bad day and you don't feel good about yourself. Seems you have a lot of those... maybe that's telling you something about the way you're living your life. Maybe you don't get out of the house enough, even just for a walk through the park or a bikeride... maybe you are stuck in a rut that you need to get out of. I don't get want you want from the people here. You must know that nobody is going to tell you you're stupid, because it's simply not true.

You did stumble onto something that may be affecting this, though--I am not getting outside the house enough, getting enough exercise, and so on. Seems to keep my mood lower than it should be.

energeia Wrote:

Batman, it's pretty apparent that you BELIEVE you're defective.
You remind us of this belief on a regular basis.
And your envy of people who have skills you think you lack bleeds out all over.

I don't think I lack them. Mostly, I do actually lack them.

energeia Wrote:

Yet, if I or someone else said to you, "You are defective -- a miserable excuse for a human being" or some such, I hypothesize that you would get pretty defensive because deep down in your heart I imagine that you DON'T accept this image as your true self.

For some reason, or set of reasons, it suits your purpose to see yourself as defective. Are you asking us to tell you that this is okay? How would this kind of validation help you?

I just want to know what the truth is. Is all this artificial confidence-boosting stuff the truth from you guys ("you are bright," etc) the truth, or is my idea that I'm significantly more devoid of cognitive ability than the average person--or AT LEAST the average Aspie--correct? Which is it?

energeia Wrote:

Batman, I don't know what your true talents and strengths and gifts are. Nobody here does.

I thought I had covered the bases pretty well. Over 3700 posts and counting.

energeia Wrote:

My concern for you, Batman, is that your life is passing you by while you wallow in your perceived defectiveness. This makes me sad on your behalf.

Time wasting ability is my greatest gift.  I do not learn skills correctly.

I'd go on and explain how much my learning problems control my life, if I felt you had a care in the world about learning disabilities and how they ruin a person's life.  But you do not care, because your world has no use for the learning disabled in it.  Not to mention, you've never had to deal with the learning problems I have.

The closest you'll find to a learning disabled person in your workplace is the cleaning crew.  I do not think such a person's salary is comparable to yours or anyone else who has a useful position.