I have noticed that alot of people who have AS (or think they have AS) seem reluctant to work really hard at acting NT in order to get and keep a job. I have been working full-time since I was 18, I too struggled with A-Levels and found college too stressful so I left and took a full-time job. I feel that if you really want to do well at work you have to put alot of effort into understanding how 'office politics' work, body language, inter-personal skills, etc. work (Sociology should help with that). It comes as no surprise to me that people who refuse to 'fit-in' are unemployable. It is important to stress I understand the difference between can't and won't. Without a doubt, even now, I struggle through my working day. Me going to work is like an actor going on stage and I don't always feel it was worth the pain and exhaustion. The thing that keeps me going is my desire for independance and a good income gives me that.
Good luck with your job search.
I don't think learning to fit in has a great deal to do with work ethic. There is no written rule that says Aspies need to take "Sociology 101" to play their part in society. Learning to fit in may have more to do with capability, and how much stress you can handle by using your "fake NT mask," and so on. There are some people who are willing to act NT but not fully able, and others who are able but not fully willing. I give respect to both sides, because to deny us a right to be ourselves--even in the workplace--is a mistake... I mean, what about those who really aren't able to fit in? Should they be looked upon as less, because some of us are able to "work hard" to seem NT and pull it off, and therefore those people must not be trying hard enough?
All I'm saying is, if fitting in is not for you or you can't do it or it's too stressful (I'm in this category...and please don't assume that you know what it's like to be me), there's no reason to think that person is a "lazy bum." I realize the real world may feel differently, but the real world does not understand what it's like to be in our shoes.
I would question the 85% unemployment figure. Since my nephew was diagnosed, my sister in law (who is in UK) has made a huge effort to find out more and has met a fair number of AS folk along the way. Most of them have been employed. Maybe underemployed, maybe eccentric, but never the less employed.
My husband who is self diagnosed has always been employed - and good jobs too - he has struggled, but like Michael1 has always valued his independence enough to work hard. I have met other people with AS of our age (and remember that a diagnosis was not available for them so they simply though they were a bit 'different' and carried on) one of whom is a senior teacher and another a scientist. I don't think that people necessarily have to conform to be accepted - but an effort has to be made by all NT and AS to make work go smoothly.
I know some simply cannot fit in - but there are many of us NTs who have to do lots of things we don't like on a daily basis just to earn a crust.
In essence, you disagree with me. Indeed, we should all seek our independence, AS or NT. But for some of us, we may choose to do it in a different way, perhaps without utilizing as much conformity as some AS people. If you're a social phobic AS without a college degree, and you're not applying for a socially-oriented job available to you, just down the street, pays 15 dollars an hour... can you really translate that to NT terms like you have just--unwisely--done?
For the record I agree with Michael1 that it's worth doing stressful work if you value your independence. I would also like my independence and indeed I know I'll have to struggle eventually, to get it. But really, I don't see the use in comparing the AS struggle to the NT struggle. The workplace and the world, essentially, is set up to play to generalist NT strengths. The utility any given AS person has with this framework is a crapshoot... our skill profiles are very jagged, and different from one another. Some AS may have strengths that can compensate for the missing skills, others may have a more idiosyncratic profile (e.g. learning disabilities) and may not be able to compensate.
For those who can't compensate with maths or academia, is it really mandatory that you force yourself to conform socially, and so on? Daisymay, that's essentially what your post is saying. And I disagree.
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting a complete 'fake it' approach to interaction in the work place. I am suggesting, that from my experience of a variety of work environments, that for someone looking for their first full time job, it is worth spending considerable time working out when 'fitting in' is better than 'being yourself'. It is not about comparing theory of AS v NT, etc. it is about getting a job and keeping a job. For example, there are times when I would prefer to walk away from a customer dispute but I can't, or times when a collegue is boring me with details of their last holiday or similar and I listen politely because it's better to do that than alienate that person who's help or back-up I might need in the future. Its hard to work this all out at times and it's stressful and I'd frequently prefer to stay at home.
I understand why people reject my 'actor playing a role and following a script' approach to work, but most often those who do are unemployed. I would much prefer not to work in the environment I do but I don't want to loose my financial independance, so I stick at it and work at it.
I'm one of those people who can't fake NT and is also not willing.
Then I give up...
I give up using my twelve years of experience in full time employment trying to help those who can't get a job. I'm fed up of the I'm not willing to try stuff. So enjoy your unemployment. It must be good for you. Otherwise you would try.
For me it's the Batman55 theory!
Real life turns into the theory of the undiagnosed AS!
I'm not trying to suggest my theory is correct and that Michael1 is wrong. For all intents and purposes, his theory is correct. And he's right to say that my ideas here lack credence, because I don't have the official diagnosis.
There was indeed a time--quite recently when you look at the big picture--when the AS label was not in use and those who were different or had social difficulties would have had no choice but to work fulltime anyway, most likely in an environment that didn't suit the person, either. I dare say my "different" uncle at 75 years old went through all that without knowledge that he had AS, although he had an extroverted personality which helped him a lot in his field, as it was socially oriented. I'm not the same as him in that regard, so logic dictates I look for a job with less intensive social interaction... all of my previous jobs have been customer oriented and not to my liking, even though I stuck with them for a while.
I'll admit I don't like the undercurrent of hostility I see in this thread. There are other reasons besides social difficulties and problems with real world interaction that are behind my lack of a fulltime job. I'd not go into all of this because they are my personal problems and not for other people online to "judge" whether the reasons are acceptable or not. For the record, my family and friends are not happy about my inadequacy and I have faced consequences for my status that I would not otherwise see if I was gainfully employed.
I'll admit I don't like the undercurrent of hostility I see in this thread.
In my opinion, Batman, this thread is NOT all about you. I don't see the hostility. People, especially Daisy May, are expressing their opinions. They're not launching a personal attack towards you. I think that your inner critic is being triggered and you're externalizing the source.
There is at least one member who responded disapprovingly of things that I said. That was the "undercurrent" I was speaking of. I guess it is not hostility, but I saw it that way. I know the thread is not all about me.
M is quite right and re-reading my posts on this thread I sound arrogant and rude and I apologies for that. My reality is rather like M says. My current job is very hard work for me to do and I stick at it not because of my ability to cope and learn but because it pays well (as a result of working shifts and in a premium location). Before I took this job I worked in an office on minimum wage (I lasted 6 months, I wasn't sacked I quit due to stress). I took my current job in 2002 fully aware I would suffer in my current job because I had left a very similar job due to stress 12 months before. I had that job for 5 1/2 years and suffered everyday. Prior to that my first job was menial and minimum wage.
I have therefore kept my two long term jobs so long because they were jobs with hours that no-one else wants to do and the work-customer care/ ticket office is fairly easy. In reality, despite my qualifications my personality simply does get me anywhere near a good career. So I too would probably be unemployed were it not for sticking with something I just about cope with. So I am really only fooling myself to think I'm managing well because I'm not.
I give up using my twelve years of experience in full time employment trying to help those who can't get a job. I'm fed up of the I'm not willing to try stuff. So enjoy your unemployment. It must be good for you. Otherwise you would try.
Excuse me, but I take offence to this. It isn't about trying stuff (as in the work). This is about the work place atmosphere - especially socially.
Now - if you are on the Spectrum (as I suspect you are) there has to be a reason why you are doing better than most of us. It has nothing to do with what we can't or won't do. It's to do with what you have found. A niche for yourself. That's good for you.
But to expect the rest of us to have a easy time of it finding our niche is unfair. No two people are the same. I suppose you expect me to try even though I have already and I've been psychologically beaten up for it - AND labelled unemployable by a government medical officer. You can not expect every Aspie to fake NT. We either can't do it - or we won't because it's dishonest.
The general work place experience for Aspies is bad. You are the exception, Michael, not the rule.
I agree very much here, Timelord, and am not at all happy with the hostile undertones shown in some previous posts. Life wasn't meant to be queasy so if some of us do not join the rat race, it shouldn't be taken as laziness or unwillingness to compromise.
I might add that I do have a job but that I was very lucky to get it and who knows how I would manage if I were a young person starting out in the jobs market now. The interview process would most likely put me out of contention for my written skills are far in advance of my verbal skills.
In fact, it makes me very angry when people make ignorant and uninformed comments when they do not know the people who they are making the assumptions about.
As long as the allowances and compromises are reasonable and achievable within the bounds of the person's abilities.
Ignorance about other peoples feelings is one of the reasons I was diagnosed with AS.
Maybe I reacted a little too much - it's a bit of a sore subject with me, that's all.
Well for me the positives are; you earn money and that usually leads to a degree of independance, you can sometimes meet nice people who may become friends, you may learn new skills that can help you in the future.
The negatives are; (in my case) it takes up 50+ hours of the week, including commuting. You come into contact with many people who you might not choose to spend time with. If you don't live up to the expectations of managers and collegues they may choose to make your life hell!