03-14-2008, 09:07 AM
The following is the complete text of an email I sent recently to the person I believe is responsible for administering an IRC server on which a user, presumably a channel operator, made bigoted, ignorant assertions about autistics, even after being warned clearly that his remarks were offensive. The incident ended with the offender kicking me from the channel.
You may wish to email this administrator with your comments.
-- Xiong
To: JetBoy <jetboy@hackint.org>
From: Xiong <xiong@mochamail.com>
Subject: Abuse on #ca2600
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008
Dear Administrator,
I am an autistic person; that is, I belong to that group of people who identify ourselves as autistics, sometimes "aspies" or "aspergers". Please allow me to defer any lengthy discussion of what autism really is. For now, I simply assert that autistics are one of the many often- misunderstood groups of humans on this planet -- along with African-Americans, gays, women, and Jews. We do not consider ourselves deformed in any way; merely different.
I write to complain of a user named "lain". He appears to operate as a bot, which of course doesn't make much sense; he interacts like a human. We had an exchange of words on irc.2600.net channel #ca2600, which I understand you administrate. If I'm wrong on this point, please kindly point me in the proper direction and/or forward this email to the responsible party.
Here are some excerpts from this exchange. The full, unedited text will be appended to this message. "atari2600a" is a speaker on both the channel in question and of an autism-related channel. The convo begins with atari discussing his self-identification.
* * *
11:54p: lain: atari2600a: you always say the most socially awkward things
11:55p: atari2600a: it comes w/ the asperger syndrome package
11:55p: lain: so how do you *know* you have aspergers, anyway?
11:55p: atari2600a: tests
11:55p: lain: like actual tests administered by a medical professional
11:58p: lain: see a doc
11:58p: atari2600a: I qualify for all the asperger characteristics
11:59p: Xiong: lain: "medical professionals" are not qualified to identify a person as autistic
12:00a: Xiong: any more than you would go to see a doctor to find out if you're gay
12:01a: Xiong: autism is personal
12:01a: atari2600a: that would make things easier though, lol
12:01a: lain: Xiong: so self-diagnosis is the only method??
12:01a: lain: so it's all fake!
12:01a: Xiong: diagnosis is the wrong word
12:01a: Xiong: autism is not a disease
12:01a: Xiong: so it can't be diagnosed
12:01a: lain: it's a disorder
12:01a: lain: it can be diagnosed
12:01a: Xiong: and doctors, with their orientation, cannot tell if you are autistic
12:01a: Xiong: absolutely wrong, lain
12:02a: lain: uhm no
12:02a: lain: i'm not wrong at all
12:02a: Xiong: well, you go think as you please
12:02a: lain: and you go be wrong
12:02a: Xiong: you may also, if you like, think of homosexuality as a disease
12:02a: Xiong: and ppl who don't worship at your church, infidels who are dammned to hell
12:02a: lain: homosexuality isnt a disease, it's a condition of existing, i'm bisexual, it's a consequence of biochemistry
12:02a: lain: i dont subscribe to any religious beliefs
12:03a: lain: biochemistry dictates these things
12:03a: Xiong: no, you are sick, go see a doctor to see if you are really gay or if you're just imagining it
12:03a: Xiong: maybe you can be treated
12:03a: Xiong: neurology dictates autism
12:03a: Xiong: nothing is broken
12:03a: Xiong: and nothing can be fixed
12:03a: lain: "nothing is broken" <-- that's arguable
12:03a: Xiong: when you are ready to have straight ppl dictate to you the nature of bisex
12:03a: lain: in some cases autism can be severe
12:04a: lain: and impair function in many ways
12:04a: Xiong: then i will be ready to have typicals dictate to me the nature of autism
12:05a: lain: i didnt say all autistic people are something
12:05a: Xiong: ... autistics, like anyone else, have problems
12:05a: lain: exactly
12:05a: lain: it's an abnormality
12:06a: lain: that doesnt say it's good or bad
12:06a: Xiong: but autism itself is not a problem or abnormality
12:06a: Xiong: and you are very rude to so label us
This is the first point at which I have warned lain that his comments are personally offensive. He goes on to force the dictionary bot to quote the definition of "abnormal", which smacks to me of shouting "freak!" at someone.
12:06a: lain: NOT NORMAL == ABNORMAL
12:06a: atari2600a: siren hurt my feelings
12:06a: atari2600a: /wrists
12:07a: Xiong: you would not dare to characterize african-americans as disordered or abnormal, would you?
12:08a: Xiong: how would you like it if i said that bisexes were sexually dysfunctional? or confused?
12:08a: Xiong: i am not permitted to take media stereotypes and coffepot chatter and whip it into a general theory of bisex
12:09a: lain: but fact is
12:09a: Xiong: don't argue at all, unless you are autistic
12:09a: Xiong: autistics own the definition of autism
12:09a: lain: oh ok
12:09a: Xiong: just as gays own the definition of gay
12:09a: Xiong: nobody is permitted to say it is a disorder, a disease
12:10a: atari2600a: ...except Chuck Norris
12:10a: Xiong: -- not that a whole army of ignorant ppl do not do exactly that --
12:10a: lain: "Autism is a brain development disorder that impairs social interaction and communication, and causes restricted and repetitive behavior, all starting before a child is three years old. This set of signs distinguishes autism from milder autism spectrum disorders (ASD) such as Asperger syndrome."
12:10a: Xiong: but in polite convo, we understand that such ppl are not to be taken seriously
12:10a: Xiong: do you think making an ignorant comment is made better by putting quotes around it?
12:10a: Xiong: resort to authority is not logic
12:10a: lain: no, it's not an ignorant comment
12:11a: Xiong: tell me then why it is well-informed
12:11a: Xiong: did an autistic say that?
12:12a: Xiong: you just said a nasty thing and attempted to bolster it by putting it in quotes
12:12a: lain: no i didn't
12:12a: Xiong: retract it now or end the discussion
12:12a: lain: i took it from WIKI
12:12a: lain: ****
12:12a: lain: PEDIA
12:12a: Xiong: WP is an authority on nothing
12:12a: lain: i know
At this point, perhaps any hope of rational discussion is over and I should have left channel and complained to the Administrator then. Perserverence is a common characteristic among many autistics.
12:15a: lain: again, i never said disease, i only said disorder
12:15a: Xiong: disease, disorder, dysfunction, disability
12:15a: lain: as in differs from the normal order of things
12:15a: Xiong: all these negative labels
12:15a: lain: .dict disorder
Another bullying dictionary definition.
12:15a: Xiong: it's very rude
12:15a: lain: THAT IS NOT A NEGATIVE LABEL
12:15a: Xiong: look, tell you what
12:15a: Xiong: you just go on down to the south side of chicago
12:16a: Xiong: and start tossing out what you think are acceptable labels for black ppl
12:16a: Xiong: and see if you get to decide what is or is not offensive
12:16a: Xiong: i am telling you clearly, i do not give you the right to characterize me
12:16a: Xiong: get me?
12:17a: Xiong: it is offensive, rude, hate speech
12:17a: Xiong: to try to describe me in any terms
At this point, I have made myself crystal clear, I believe. I admit that from here on out, nothing could have been gained from the convo. lain continues to rub in his offensive message. I'm extremely upset.
12:17a: Xiong: ... i am the one wearing the yellow star you are stapling on my chest
12:18a: lain: i never stapled anything on your chest fuckwit
12:18a: Xiong: unless you concede to me the right to sit here on channel and badmouth you
12:18a: Xiong: pls don't badmouth me and my kind
12:18a: Xiong: autistics are human
12:18a: Xiong: we are not a disease
12:18a: Xiong: you are out of line
lain will not moderate his remarks. I don't like to threaten but I think it's important to warn a person of the specific consequences of his actions.
12:22a: Xiong: lain if you continue to spout anti-autistic hate speech i will look to take action
12:22a: Xiong: you are not listening to reason
12:22a: Xiong: i may not be able to get you banned but i will certainly fight you
12:28a: lain: when did i make a negative comment?
12:28a: Xiong: that is the most polite request you're going to get
12:28a: Xiong: everything you've said is in the log
12:28a: Xiong: say nothing more, you've said quite enough already
12:29a: Xiong: i won't dignify your dirt by quoting it
12:29a: lain: i'm asking an honest question here
12:29a: Xiong: no you're not
12:29a: Xiong: i've told you clearly, your remarks are unacceptable
12:29a: Xiong: now you either stop or we fight
12:30a: *** Mode change "+b *!*Xiong*@*" on #ca2600 by lain
12:30a: *** Xiong was kicked off #ca2600 by lain (grow up)
* * *
I'm not going to re-argue the points I've already made. I will summarize my views, very shortly:
* Autism is not a disease, disorder, dysfunction, disability, or crime. It is a state of being -- atypical but not abnormal to human beings. Autistic people are often less able than most typical people at some tasks -- but more able at others. There is nothing here to diagnose or cure. Autism is who we are.
* Autistics have moral priority to define autism, to choose labels for ourselves, to say what are and are not acceptable and offensive descriptions of autism.
* I do not say that lain is a perverted, sick, confused, disordered switch-hitting ***. Even if I thought so, I would never dare to air my bigoted opinion in public. If I carelessly made a comment about bisexuality that he found offensive, I would not debate with him. I would apologize and learn.
* lain's failure to take note of the effect of his hate speech is most uncivil. I support free speech, even to the extent of allowing lain to speak as he does in private -- or in a chatroom sponsored by a hate group. I avoid such forums. I joined #ca2600 in the expectation of civil discourse. I did not expect it to be a haven for bigots.
* Autistics are routinely abused, stereotyped, and vilified -- in private, in chatrooms, in the mass media. Many of us are incarcerated who might have productive lives in the community. Large, well-funded groups label autism a "plague" and seek to obliterate us. Parents who murder their autistic children are upheld as martyrs. This is war -- and we will stand up against these attacks.
I request that you take appropriate action to curtail lain in future and, perhaps, examine whether education is appropriate to avert similar offenses before the good name of 2600 is irreparably linked with bigotry. A public apology from lain might also be nice.
Thank you,
Xiong Changnian
* * *
Full text of channel, 2008 Mar 14 - 15 (11:54p - 12:30a):
11:54p: lain: atari2600a: you always say the most socially awkward things
11:55p: atari2600a: it comes w/ the asperger syndrome package
11:55p: lain: so how do you *know* you have aspergers, anyway?
11:55p: evilx_: she says that could be arranged
11:55p: atari2600a: tests
11:55p: atari2600a: tell her to send the pix to atari2600a@yahoo.com
11:55p: lain: like actual tests administered by a medical professional
11:55p: atari2600a: not by a professional
11:55p: lain: or something you took online.
11:56p: atari2600a: the second one
11:56p: lain: yeahhh.. about that..
11:56p: atari2600a: ?
11:57p: lain: hypochondria, anyone?
11:57p: atari2600a: phail
11:58p: lain: never use the internet as a serious diagnosis tool
11:58p: lain: see a doc
11:58p: atari2600a: I qualify for all the asperger characteristics
11:58p: atari2600a: I will
11:58p: atari2600a: I can't now though
11:58p: atari2600a: parents are in egypt
11:58p: atari2600a: Regional Transit is my only means of transportation & I don't have my insurance info, lol
11:59p: lain: i woke up with a ****** up arm one day, it hurt like hell, dunno why, no visible symptoms
11:59p: lain: after some clicking and googling
11:59p: atari2600a: Oh & alot of people suggested the idea that I had autism before I took the test
11:59p: Xiong: lain: "medical professionals" are not qualified to identify a person as autistic
11:59p: lain: i could have had one of maybe five things
11:59p: atari2600a: including Adrian in fact
12:00a: lain: atari2600a: does adrian have a psychology degree?
12:00a: Xiong: any more than you would go to see a doctor to find out if you're gay
12:00a: atari2600a: His card has the prefix 'Dr.', lol
12:00a: *** rodent has signed off (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
12:00a: lain: Xiong: by medical professional i mean psychiatrist, which is a medical-related degree, but w/e
12:00a: Xiong: a psychologist cannot tell you if you are a christian
12:01a: Xiong: psycher, shrinker, medic, no matter
12:01a: Xiong: autism is personal
12:01a: atari2600a: that would make things easier though, lol
12:01a: lain: Xiong: so self-diagnosis is the only method??
12:01a: atari2600a: "Do you believe in christ?" "um...maybe..."
12:01a: lain: so it's all fake!
12:01a: Xiong: diagnosis is the wrong word
12:01a: Xiong: autism is not a disease
12:01a: Xiong: so it can't be diagnosed
12:01a: lain: it's a disorder
12:01a: lain: it can be diagnosed
12:01a: Xiong: and doctors, with their orientation, cannot tell if you are autistic
12:01a: Xiong: absolutely wrong, lain
12:02a: lain: uhm no
12:02a: lain: i'm not wrong at all
12:02a: Xiong: well, you go think as you please
12:02a: lain: and you go be wrong
12:02a: Xiong: you may also, if you like, think of homosexuality as a disease
12:02a: Xiong: and ppl who don't worship at your church, infidels who are dammned to hell
12:02a: lain: homosexuality isnt a disease, it's a condition of existing, i'm bisexual, it's a consequence of biochemistry
12:02a: lain: i dont subscribe to any religious beliefs
12:03a: lain: biochemistry dictates these things
12:03a: Xiong: no, you are sick, go see a doctor to see if you are really gay or if you're just imagining it
12:03a: Xiong: maybe you can be treated
12:03a: Xiong: neurology dictates autism
12:03a: Xiong: nothing is broken
12:03a: Xiong: and nothing can be fixed
12:03a: lain: "nothing is broken" <-- that's arguable
12:03a: Xiong: when you are ready to have straight ppl dictate to you the nature of bisex
12:03a: lain: in some cases autism can be severe
12:04a: lain: and impair function in many ways
12:04a: Xiong: then i will be ready to have typicals dictate to me the nature of autism
12:04a: lain: i'm not saying ALL cases are that way
12:04a: Xiong: you are absolutely wrong
12:04a: *** Adrian__ has signed off (Read error: Operation timed out)
12:04a: Xiong: learn, pls, before you attempt to stereotype another group
12:04a: atari2600a: autism impairs people indireclty
12:04a: Xiong: it's very rud
12:04a: Xiong: rude
12:04a: lain: i'm not stereotyping
12:04a: lain: we're talking about autism
12:04a: Xiong: and autistics are not ppl?
12:05a: lain: i didnt say all autistic people are something
12:05a: lain: or aren't something
12:05a: lain: i said IN SOME CASES
12:05a: Xiong: you are being offensive
12:05a: lain: note the qualifier
12:05a: Xiong: some autistics are stupid
12:05a: Xiong: some autistics are dumb
12:05a: Xiong: some autistics are handicapped
12:05a: lain: some autistics are geniuses
12:05a: lain: some autistics are funny
12:05a: Xiong: but that says nothing at all about autism, except that it is normal for humans to be autistic
12:05a: lain: some autistics are depressed
12:05a: lain: some autistics are ANYTHING
12:05a: Xiong: and autistics, like anyone else, have problems
12:05a: lain: exactly
12:05a: lain: it's an abnormality
12:06a: lain: that doesnt say it's good or bad
12:06a: Xiong: but autism itself is not a problem or abnormality
12:06a: Xiong: and you are very rude to so label us
12:06a: lain: you just said it's not normal
12:06a: lain: HMM
12:06a: lain: .dict abnormal
12:06a: Siren: --- [from wn] --- abnormal adj 1: not normal; not typical or usual or regular or conforming to a norm; "abnormal powers of concentration"; "abnormal amounts of rain"; "abnormal circumstances"; "an abnormal interest in food" [ant: {normal}] 2: departing from the normal in e.g. intelligence and development; "they were heartbroken when they learned their child was abnormal"; "an abnormal personality" [ant: {normal}] 3:
12:06a: Siren: much greater than the normal; "abnormal profits"; "abnormal ambition"
12:06a: lain: WOW
12:06a: lain: HOW ABOUT THAT
12:06a: lain: NOT NORMAL == ABNORMAL
12:06a: *** Adrian__ (adrian@phalse.2600.COM) joined #ca2600
12:06a: atari2600a: siren hurt my feelings
12:06a: atari2600a: /wrists
12:06a: Xiong: quote me where i said it was abnormal for humans to be autistic
12:06a: Xiong: i made the opposite statement
12:06a: atari2600a: Adrian__: are you rly thar or is it just your connection cutting out?
12:07a: lain: ah, i misread
12:07a: lain: so you're saying it's normal
12:07a: Xiong: you sure did
12:07a: lain: so, how is it normal?
12:07a: Xiong: you are misreading everything about us
12:07a: lain: .dict normal
12:07a: Siren: --- [from wn] --- normal adj 1: conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal; "serve wine at normal room temperature"; "normal diplomatic relations"; "normal working hours"; "normal word order"; "normal curiosity"; "the normal course of events" [ant: {abnormal}] 2: in accordance with scientific laws [ant: {paranormal}] 3: being approximately average or within
12:07a: Siren: certain limits in e.g. intelligence and development; "a perfectly normal child"; "of normal intelligence"; "the most normal person I've ever met" [ant: {abnormal}] 4: forming a right angle n : something regarded as a normative example; "the convention of not naming the main character"; "violence is the rule not the exception"; "his formula for impressing visitors" [syn: {convention}, {pattern}, {rule}, {formula}]
12:07a: Xiong: and it is rude
12:07a: lain: Xiong: that's subjective, mmkay
12:07a: Xiong: you would not dare to characterize african-americans as disordered or abnormal, would you?
12:08a: lain: lol
12:08a: lain: ok let me posit something here
12:08a: Xiong: how would you like it if i said that bisexes were sexually dysfunctional? or confused?
12:08a: lain: i have obsessive-compulsive disorder, been diagnosed by a professional, kk?
12:08a: lain: now
12:08a: lain: i COULD argue
12:08a: lain: that it's not a disorder
12:08a: lain: it's a state of being, it's a consequence of neurology / genetics / whatever the *** causes it, i don't know
12:08a: Xiong: i am not permitted to take media stereotypes and coffepot chatter and whip it into a general theory of bisex
12:09a: lain: but fact is
12:09a: Xiong: don't argue at all, unless you are autistic
12:09a: Xiong: autistics own the definition of autism
12:09a: lain: oh ok
12:09a: Xiong: just as gays own the definition of gay
12:09a: Xiong: nobody is permitted to say it is a disorder, a disease
12:10a: atari2600a: ...except Chuck Norris
12:10a: Xiong: -- not that a whole army of ignorant ppl do not do exactly that --
12:10a: lain: "Autism is a brain development disorder that impairs social interaction and communication, and causes restricted and repetitive behavior, all starting before a child is three years old. This set of signs distinguishes autism from milder autism spectrum disorders (ASD) such as Asperger syndrome."
12:10a: Xiong: but in polite convo, we understand that such ppl are not to be taken seriously
12:10a: Xiong: do you think making an ignorant comment is made better by putting quotes around it?
12:10a: Xiong: resort to authority is not logic
12:10a: lain: no, it's not an ignorant comment
12:11a: Xiong: tell me then why it is well-informed
12:11a: Xiong: did an autistic say that?
12:11a: *** rodent (r0d3nt@phalse.2600.COM) joined #ca2600
12:11a: lain: Xiong: was einstein smart?
12:11a: lain: did he say he was?
12:11a: lain: if not, he wasnt by your logic
12:11a: Xiong: you are evading the issue
12:11a: lain: but by reasoning
12:11a: lain: ok look
12:12a: lain: everything's relative
12:12a: Xiong: you just said a nasty thing and attempted to bolster it by putting it in quotes
12:12a: lain: no i didn't
12:12a: Xiong: retract it now or end the discussion
12:12a: lain: i took it from WIKI
12:12a: lain: ****
12:12a: lain: PEDIA
12:12a: Xiong: WP is an authority on nothingc
12:12a: lain: i know
12:12a: atari2600a: now probably wouldn't be a good time to say that Xiong hatex wp
12:12a: Xiong: it can be used to prove ducks fly
12:12a: lain: oh i'm well aware wikipedia isn't an authority on anything
12:12a: Xiong: then why dirty the convo with a hate comment from it?
12:13a: lain: because it's accurate
12:13a: Xiong: it is not accurate, you have no basis to say so
12:13a: lain: it's an observation
12:14a: lain: which i've not only seen for myself to verify
12:14a: Xiong: i observe that your sexual identity is a perversion
12:14a: Xiong: do you accept that?
12:14a: lain: that's an opinion and it doesnt bother me
12:14a: Xiong: fine
12:14a: lain: i can be very perverse at times, and i don't care
12:14a: Xiong: then you may have your opinion that i am diseased
12:14a: Xiong: and i will have my opinion that you are a fool
12:14a: atari2600a: *disordered
12:14a: troy: *** i have a zit the size of texas on my neck
12:14a: lain: and i observe that autism, to some degree effects social interaction
12:15a: Xiong: and so long as neither of us try to advance our idiot notions as fact, all will be well
12:15a: lain: again, i never said disease, i only said disorder
12:15a: atari2600a: troy: alcohol & needle nose pliers
12:15a: Xiong: disease, disorder, dysfunction, disability
12:15a: lain: as in differs from the normal order of things
12:15a: Xiong: all these negative labels
12:15a: lain: .dict disorder
12:15a: Siren: --- [from wn] --- disorder n 1: condition in which there is a disturbance of normal functioning; "the doctor prescribed some medicine for the disorder"; "everyone gets stomach upsets from time to time" [syn: {upset}] 2: a condition in which things are not in their expected places; "the files are in complete disorder" [syn: {disorderliness}] [ant: {orderliness}, {orderliness}] 3: a disturbance of the peace or of
12:15a: Siren: public order [ant: {order}] v 1: disturb in mind or make uneasy or cause to be worried or alarmed; "She was rather perturbed by the news that her father was seriously ill" [syn: {perturb}, {unhinge}, {disquiet}, {trouble}, {cark}, {distract}] 2: bring disorder to [syn: {disarray}] [ant: {order}]
12:15a: Xiong: it's very rude
12:15a: troy: atari2600a, i don't have bad acne -- this is just a one off
12:15a: lain: THAT IS NOT A NEGATIVE LABEL
12:15a: Xiong: look, tell you what
12:15a: lain: you're branding it as negative
12:15a: lain: it's not
12:15a: lain: it's neutral
12:15a: Xiong: you just go on down to the south side of chicago
12:16a: *** evilx (apache@pinky.ratman.org) joined #ca2600
12:16a: Xiong: and start tossing out what you think are acceptable labels for black ppl
12:16a: Xiong: and see if you get to decide what is or is not offensive
12:16a: Xiong: i am telling you clearly, i do not give you the right to characterize me
12:16a: Xiong: get me?
12:16a: lain: you very well have the right to decide that's offensive to you
12:17a: Xiong: it is offensive, rude, hate speech
12:17a: lain: but it is not, by its own nature, and of it's own accord, offensive
12:17a: Xiong: to try to describe me in any terms
12:17a: lain: you may take it that way
12:17a: lain: but it's not meant that way
12:17a: Xiong: and if i do, then that's the end of it
12:17a: lain: which means
12:17a: lain: that you're gathering a false notion from my words
12:17a: Xiong: because i am the one wearing the yellow star you are stapling on my chest
12:17a: evilx: im on the cgi irc
12:17a: evilx: so i dont have to be on my ipod
12:17a: evilx: whats up
12:18a: lain: i never stapled anything on your chest fuckwit
12:18a: Xiong: unless you concede to me the right to sit here on channel and badmouth you
12:18a: Xiong: pls don't badmouth me and my kind
12:18a: Xiong: autistics are human
12:18a: Xiong: we are not a disease
12:18a: Xiong: you are out of line
12:18a: lain: i never said you weren't human
12:18a: lain: and i never, ever said disease
12:18a: Xiong: you are out of line
12:18a: lain: i said disorder
12:18a: Xiong: get me?
12:18a: lain: it's NOT the same thing
12:18a: lain: i'm not out of line
12:18a: Xiong: you are not talking about you, you are talking about me
12:19a: lain: i'm well aware of that
12:19a: Xiong: then shut up
12:19a: lain: i'm talking in generalizations actually
12:19a: Xiong: you are done
12:19a: lain: so really
12:19a: Xiong: way overdone
12:19a: lain: this has nothign to do with me
12:19a: Xiong: don't you dare generalize about another group of ppl
12:19a: lain: hey guess what, by your logic, you can't define me in any way, or my state of being
12:19a: lain: so guess what
12:19a: lain: you can't say i'm done
12:19a: Xiong: you need to be quiet
12:19a: lain: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
12:19a: lain: don't generalize?
12:19a: lain: DONT GENERALIZE?
12:19a: lain: look
12:19a: Xiong: i'm being quite specific
12:20a: lain: i'm not a huge fan of generalizations
12:20a: Xiong: you are being very rude
12:20a: lain: i know they can be OFFENSIVE
12:20a: Xiong: labelling members of another group
12:20a: Xiong: don't do it
12:20a: Xiong: you would not have it done to you
12:20a: lain: but generalizations are necessary for talking about a general group
12:20a: lain: which have something in common
12:20a: Xiong: and you know damn well that other groups would not tolerate it
12:20a: lain: like males
12:20a: lain: not all men are assholes
12:20a: lain: not all men are nice
12:20a: Xiong: if you want to learn about autism, ask questions
12:20a: Xiong: you don't know anything about it
12:21a: Xiong: and you should not speak from ignorance
12:21a: lain: but men, in general, AS A GENERALIZATION, have a penis
12:21a: lain: which is why they're called men
12:21a: lain: women, on the other hand, tend not to have a penis
12:21a: lain: therefore they are women
12:21a: lain: that says nothing about them other than they are men or women, or otherwise
12:21a: atari2600a: what if they have both?
12:21a: lain: atari2600a: which is why generalizations arent perfect
12:21a: lain: but they're effective when discussing a group of people with a common trait
12:21a: evilx: code:lain
12:21a: evilx: ***
12:21a: atari2600a: aww
12:21a: lain: such as people with autism
12:21a: evilx: lain my sister a drinker like me
12:21a: lain: or people with OCD
12:22a: lain: or people with ADD
12:22a: lain: it says nothing about the people themselves
12:22a: lain: it does not define their lifestyles
12:22a: Xiong: lain if you continue to spout anti-autistic hate speech i will look to take action
12:22a: Xiong: you are not listening to reason
12:22a: Xiong: i may not be able to get you banned but i will certainly fight you
12:22a: lain: Xiong: you can't claim to be part of a group of people, then state generalizations are bad is what i'm getting at
12:22a: Xiong: either be quiet or moderate your venom
12:22a: atari2600a: IRC FIGHT!
12:23a: lain: i probably dont have anything in common with other people with OCD, or bipolar disorder, or anything else i may have
12:23a: evilx: hat irc fight
12:23a: evilx: what
12:23a: evilx: that *** slapped me
12:23a: lain: but i'm still part of that generalized group
12:23a: evilx: that ***
12:23a: evilx: what ***
12:24a: evilx: lain your the only *** in the channel ,did you slap me?
12:24a: evilx: lain did you grab my ***, it ok if you did, but dude that just wrong
12:25a: *** lain is lain@pinky.ratman.org (lain)
12:25a: *** lain is on channels @#gay2600 %#ca2600
12:25a: *** lain is on IRC via madjack.2600.net (Avast, ye scurvy sea dogs!)
12:26a: lain: all i've said about autism is that it's not the norm, and it *generally* tends to impair social function/interaction
12:27a: Xiong: don't say it again
12:27a: Xiong: you've said worse
12:27a: lain: dont say what again?
12:27a: Xiong: say nothing, it's usually best
12:27a: lain: the fact that you're taking offense to general statements is NOT my fault
12:27a: lain: it's your own fault for misconstrueing(sp?) what i'm saying
12:27a: Xiong: don't make any more general statements about autistics
12:27a: lain: into something offensive
12:27a: Xiong: i'm one
12:27a: lain: what's wrong with general statements
12:27a: Xiong: you're obviously not
12:28a: Xiong: i'm not going to debate you further
12:28a: lain: even if i was, i wouldn't take offense to general statements
12:28a: *** evilx has signed off (Quit: CGI:IRC - pinky.ratman.org (EOF))
12:28a: lain: that's WHY they're general statements
12:28a: Xiong: do not make negative comments about the group of ppl to which i belong
12:28a: lain: when did i make a negative comment?
12:28a: Xiong: that is the most polite request you're going to get
12:28a: Xiong: everything you've said is in the log
12:28a: Xiong: say nothing more, you've said quite enough already
12:28a: lain: no
12:29a: lain: tell me
12:29a: Xiong: i won't dignify your dirt by quoting it
12:29a: lain: i'm asking an honest question here
12:29a: Xiong: no you're not
12:29a: *** evilx (apache@pinky.ratman.org) joined #ca2600
12:29a: Xiong: i've told you clearly, your remarks are unacceptable
12:29a: evilx: I was going to get another drink
12:29a: Xiong: now you either stop or we fight
12:29a: lain: Xiong: TO OYU
12:29a: lain: YOU*
12:29a: lain: specifically
12:29a: evilx: but I walk into the front room and my sister hanging out with her new bf or person
12:29a: lain: ok, let's.
12:29a: evilx: and didnt want to bother them, so I am back
12:29a: evilx: I am sorta in my sister room on her compute
12:29a: atari2600a: BF or BFF?
12:30a: atari2600a: or FB
12:30a: evilx: dude
12:30a: *** Mode change "+b *!*Xiong*@*" on #ca2600 by lain
12:30a: *** Xiong was kicked off #ca2600 by lain (grow up)
* * *
* * *
Xiong Changnian
xiong@mochamail.com
You must be the change you want to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
You may wish to email this administrator with your comments.
-- Xiong
To: JetBoy <jetboy@hackint.org>
From: Xiong <xiong@mochamail.com>
Subject: Abuse on #ca2600
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008
Dear Administrator,
I am an autistic person; that is, I belong to that group of people who identify ourselves as autistics, sometimes "aspies" or "aspergers". Please allow me to defer any lengthy discussion of what autism really is. For now, I simply assert that autistics are one of the many often- misunderstood groups of humans on this planet -- along with African-Americans, gays, women, and Jews. We do not consider ourselves deformed in any way; merely different.
I write to complain of a user named "lain". He appears to operate as a bot, which of course doesn't make much sense; he interacts like a human. We had an exchange of words on irc.2600.net channel #ca2600, which I understand you administrate. If I'm wrong on this point, please kindly point me in the proper direction and/or forward this email to the responsible party.
Here are some excerpts from this exchange. The full, unedited text will be appended to this message. "atari2600a" is a speaker on both the channel in question and of an autism-related channel. The convo begins with atari discussing his self-identification.
* * *
11:54p: lain: atari2600a: you always say the most socially awkward things
11:55p: atari2600a: it comes w/ the asperger syndrome package
11:55p: lain: so how do you *know* you have aspergers, anyway?
11:55p: atari2600a: tests
11:55p: lain: like actual tests administered by a medical professional
11:58p: lain: see a doc
11:58p: atari2600a: I qualify for all the asperger characteristics
11:59p: Xiong: lain: "medical professionals" are not qualified to identify a person as autistic
12:00a: Xiong: any more than you would go to see a doctor to find out if you're gay
12:01a: Xiong: autism is personal
12:01a: atari2600a: that would make things easier though, lol
12:01a: lain: Xiong: so self-diagnosis is the only method??
12:01a: lain: so it's all fake!
12:01a: Xiong: diagnosis is the wrong word
12:01a: Xiong: autism is not a disease
12:01a: Xiong: so it can't be diagnosed
12:01a: lain: it's a disorder
12:01a: lain: it can be diagnosed
12:01a: Xiong: and doctors, with their orientation, cannot tell if you are autistic
12:01a: Xiong: absolutely wrong, lain
12:02a: lain: uhm no
12:02a: lain: i'm not wrong at all
12:02a: Xiong: well, you go think as you please
12:02a: lain: and you go be wrong
12:02a: Xiong: you may also, if you like, think of homosexuality as a disease
12:02a: Xiong: and ppl who don't worship at your church, infidels who are dammned to hell
12:02a: lain: homosexuality isnt a disease, it's a condition of existing, i'm bisexual, it's a consequence of biochemistry
12:02a: lain: i dont subscribe to any religious beliefs
12:03a: lain: biochemistry dictates these things
12:03a: Xiong: no, you are sick, go see a doctor to see if you are really gay or if you're just imagining it
12:03a: Xiong: maybe you can be treated
12:03a: Xiong: neurology dictates autism
12:03a: Xiong: nothing is broken
12:03a: Xiong: and nothing can be fixed
12:03a: lain: "nothing is broken" <-- that's arguable
12:03a: Xiong: when you are ready to have straight ppl dictate to you the nature of bisex
12:03a: lain: in some cases autism can be severe
12:04a: lain: and impair function in many ways
12:04a: Xiong: then i will be ready to have typicals dictate to me the nature of autism
12:05a: lain: i didnt say all autistic people are something
12:05a: Xiong: ... autistics, like anyone else, have problems
12:05a: lain: exactly
12:05a: lain: it's an abnormality
12:06a: lain: that doesnt say it's good or bad
12:06a: Xiong: but autism itself is not a problem or abnormality
12:06a: Xiong: and you are very rude to so label us
This is the first point at which I have warned lain that his comments are personally offensive. He goes on to force the dictionary bot to quote the definition of "abnormal", which smacks to me of shouting "freak!" at someone.
12:06a: lain: NOT NORMAL == ABNORMAL
12:06a: atari2600a: siren hurt my feelings
12:06a: atari2600a: /wrists
12:07a: Xiong: you would not dare to characterize african-americans as disordered or abnormal, would you?
12:08a: Xiong: how would you like it if i said that bisexes were sexually dysfunctional? or confused?
12:08a: Xiong: i am not permitted to take media stereotypes and coffepot chatter and whip it into a general theory of bisex
12:09a: lain: but fact is
12:09a: Xiong: don't argue at all, unless you are autistic
12:09a: Xiong: autistics own the definition of autism
12:09a: lain: oh ok
12:09a: Xiong: just as gays own the definition of gay
12:09a: Xiong: nobody is permitted to say it is a disorder, a disease
12:10a: atari2600a: ...except Chuck Norris
12:10a: Xiong: -- not that a whole army of ignorant ppl do not do exactly that --
12:10a: lain: "Autism is a brain development disorder that impairs social interaction and communication, and causes restricted and repetitive behavior, all starting before a child is three years old. This set of signs distinguishes autism from milder autism spectrum disorders (ASD) such as Asperger syndrome."
12:10a: Xiong: but in polite convo, we understand that such ppl are not to be taken seriously
12:10a: Xiong: do you think making an ignorant comment is made better by putting quotes around it?
12:10a: Xiong: resort to authority is not logic
12:10a: lain: no, it's not an ignorant comment
12:11a: Xiong: tell me then why it is well-informed
12:11a: Xiong: did an autistic say that?
12:12a: Xiong: you just said a nasty thing and attempted to bolster it by putting it in quotes
12:12a: lain: no i didn't
12:12a: Xiong: retract it now or end the discussion
12:12a: lain: i took it from WIKI
12:12a: lain: ****
12:12a: lain: PEDIA
12:12a: Xiong: WP is an authority on nothing
12:12a: lain: i know
At this point, perhaps any hope of rational discussion is over and I should have left channel and complained to the Administrator then. Perserverence is a common characteristic among many autistics.
12:15a: lain: again, i never said disease, i only said disorder
12:15a: Xiong: disease, disorder, dysfunction, disability
12:15a: lain: as in differs from the normal order of things
12:15a: Xiong: all these negative labels
12:15a: lain: .dict disorder
Another bullying dictionary definition.
12:15a: Xiong: it's very rude
12:15a: lain: THAT IS NOT A NEGATIVE LABEL
12:15a: Xiong: look, tell you what
12:15a: Xiong: you just go on down to the south side of chicago
12:16a: Xiong: and start tossing out what you think are acceptable labels for black ppl
12:16a: Xiong: and see if you get to decide what is or is not offensive
12:16a: Xiong: i am telling you clearly, i do not give you the right to characterize me
12:16a: Xiong: get me?
12:17a: Xiong: it is offensive, rude, hate speech
12:17a: Xiong: to try to describe me in any terms
At this point, I have made myself crystal clear, I believe. I admit that from here on out, nothing could have been gained from the convo. lain continues to rub in his offensive message. I'm extremely upset.
12:17a: Xiong: ... i am the one wearing the yellow star you are stapling on my chest
12:18a: lain: i never stapled anything on your chest fuckwit
12:18a: Xiong: unless you concede to me the right to sit here on channel and badmouth you
12:18a: Xiong: pls don't badmouth me and my kind
12:18a: Xiong: autistics are human
12:18a: Xiong: we are not a disease
12:18a: Xiong: you are out of line
lain will not moderate his remarks. I don't like to threaten but I think it's important to warn a person of the specific consequences of his actions.
12:22a: Xiong: lain if you continue to spout anti-autistic hate speech i will look to take action
12:22a: Xiong: you are not listening to reason
12:22a: Xiong: i may not be able to get you banned but i will certainly fight you
12:28a: lain: when did i make a negative comment?
12:28a: Xiong: that is the most polite request you're going to get
12:28a: Xiong: everything you've said is in the log
12:28a: Xiong: say nothing more, you've said quite enough already
12:29a: Xiong: i won't dignify your dirt by quoting it
12:29a: lain: i'm asking an honest question here
12:29a: Xiong: no you're not
12:29a: Xiong: i've told you clearly, your remarks are unacceptable
12:29a: Xiong: now you either stop or we fight
12:30a: *** Mode change "+b *!*Xiong*@*" on #ca2600 by lain
12:30a: *** Xiong was kicked off #ca2600 by lain (grow up)
* * *
I'm not going to re-argue the points I've already made. I will summarize my views, very shortly:
* Autism is not a disease, disorder, dysfunction, disability, or crime. It is a state of being -- atypical but not abnormal to human beings. Autistic people are often less able than most typical people at some tasks -- but more able at others. There is nothing here to diagnose or cure. Autism is who we are.
* Autistics have moral priority to define autism, to choose labels for ourselves, to say what are and are not acceptable and offensive descriptions of autism.
* I do not say that lain is a perverted, sick, confused, disordered switch-hitting ***. Even if I thought so, I would never dare to air my bigoted opinion in public. If I carelessly made a comment about bisexuality that he found offensive, I would not debate with him. I would apologize and learn.
* lain's failure to take note of the effect of his hate speech is most uncivil. I support free speech, even to the extent of allowing lain to speak as he does in private -- or in a chatroom sponsored by a hate group. I avoid such forums. I joined #ca2600 in the expectation of civil discourse. I did not expect it to be a haven for bigots.
* Autistics are routinely abused, stereotyped, and vilified -- in private, in chatrooms, in the mass media. Many of us are incarcerated who might have productive lives in the community. Large, well-funded groups label autism a "plague" and seek to obliterate us. Parents who murder their autistic children are upheld as martyrs. This is war -- and we will stand up against these attacks.
I request that you take appropriate action to curtail lain in future and, perhaps, examine whether education is appropriate to avert similar offenses before the good name of 2600 is irreparably linked with bigotry. A public apology from lain might also be nice.
Thank you,
Xiong Changnian
* * *
Full text of channel, 2008 Mar 14 - 15 (11:54p - 12:30a):
11:54p: lain: atari2600a: you always say the most socially awkward things
11:55p: atari2600a: it comes w/ the asperger syndrome package
11:55p: lain: so how do you *know* you have aspergers, anyway?
11:55p: evilx_: she says that could be arranged
11:55p: atari2600a: tests
11:55p: atari2600a: tell her to send the pix to atari2600a@yahoo.com
11:55p: lain: like actual tests administered by a medical professional
11:55p: atari2600a: not by a professional
11:55p: lain: or something you took online.
11:56p: atari2600a: the second one
11:56p: lain: yeahhh.. about that..
11:56p: atari2600a: ?
11:57p: lain: hypochondria, anyone?
11:57p: atari2600a: phail
11:58p: lain: never use the internet as a serious diagnosis tool
11:58p: lain: see a doc
11:58p: atari2600a: I qualify for all the asperger characteristics
11:58p: atari2600a: I will
11:58p: atari2600a: I can't now though
11:58p: atari2600a: parents are in egypt
11:58p: atari2600a: Regional Transit is my only means of transportation & I don't have my insurance info, lol
11:59p: lain: i woke up with a ****** up arm one day, it hurt like hell, dunno why, no visible symptoms
11:59p: lain: after some clicking and googling
11:59p: atari2600a: Oh & alot of people suggested the idea that I had autism before I took the test
11:59p: Xiong: lain: "medical professionals" are not qualified to identify a person as autistic
11:59p: lain: i could have had one of maybe five things
11:59p: atari2600a: including Adrian in fact
12:00a: lain: atari2600a: does adrian have a psychology degree?
12:00a: Xiong: any more than you would go to see a doctor to find out if you're gay
12:00a: atari2600a: His card has the prefix 'Dr.', lol
12:00a: *** rodent has signed off (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
12:00a: lain: Xiong: by medical professional i mean psychiatrist, which is a medical-related degree, but w/e
12:00a: Xiong: a psychologist cannot tell you if you are a christian
12:01a: Xiong: psycher, shrinker, medic, no matter
12:01a: Xiong: autism is personal
12:01a: atari2600a: that would make things easier though, lol
12:01a: lain: Xiong: so self-diagnosis is the only method??
12:01a: atari2600a: "Do you believe in christ?" "um...maybe..."
12:01a: lain: so it's all fake!
12:01a: Xiong: diagnosis is the wrong word
12:01a: Xiong: autism is not a disease
12:01a: Xiong: so it can't be diagnosed
12:01a: lain: it's a disorder
12:01a: lain: it can be diagnosed
12:01a: Xiong: and doctors, with their orientation, cannot tell if you are autistic
12:01a: Xiong: absolutely wrong, lain
12:02a: lain: uhm no
12:02a: lain: i'm not wrong at all
12:02a: Xiong: well, you go think as you please
12:02a: lain: and you go be wrong
12:02a: Xiong: you may also, if you like, think of homosexuality as a disease
12:02a: Xiong: and ppl who don't worship at your church, infidels who are dammned to hell
12:02a: lain: homosexuality isnt a disease, it's a condition of existing, i'm bisexual, it's a consequence of biochemistry
12:02a: lain: i dont subscribe to any religious beliefs
12:03a: lain: biochemistry dictates these things
12:03a: Xiong: no, you are sick, go see a doctor to see if you are really gay or if you're just imagining it
12:03a: Xiong: maybe you can be treated
12:03a: Xiong: neurology dictates autism
12:03a: Xiong: nothing is broken
12:03a: Xiong: and nothing can be fixed
12:03a: lain: "nothing is broken" <-- that's arguable
12:03a: Xiong: when you are ready to have straight ppl dictate to you the nature of bisex
12:03a: lain: in some cases autism can be severe
12:04a: lain: and impair function in many ways
12:04a: Xiong: then i will be ready to have typicals dictate to me the nature of autism
12:04a: lain: i'm not saying ALL cases are that way
12:04a: Xiong: you are absolutely wrong
12:04a: *** Adrian__ has signed off (Read error: Operation timed out)
12:04a: Xiong: learn, pls, before you attempt to stereotype another group
12:04a: atari2600a: autism impairs people indireclty
12:04a: Xiong: it's very rud
12:04a: Xiong: rude
12:04a: lain: i'm not stereotyping
12:04a: lain: we're talking about autism
12:04a: Xiong: and autistics are not ppl?
12:05a: lain: i didnt say all autistic people are something
12:05a: lain: or aren't something
12:05a: lain: i said IN SOME CASES
12:05a: Xiong: you are being offensive
12:05a: lain: note the qualifier
12:05a: Xiong: some autistics are stupid
12:05a: Xiong: some autistics are dumb
12:05a: Xiong: some autistics are handicapped
12:05a: lain: some autistics are geniuses
12:05a: lain: some autistics are funny
12:05a: Xiong: but that says nothing at all about autism, except that it is normal for humans to be autistic
12:05a: lain: some autistics are depressed
12:05a: lain: some autistics are ANYTHING
12:05a: Xiong: and autistics, like anyone else, have problems
12:05a: lain: exactly
12:05a: lain: it's an abnormality
12:06a: lain: that doesnt say it's good or bad
12:06a: Xiong: but autism itself is not a problem or abnormality
12:06a: Xiong: and you are very rude to so label us
12:06a: lain: you just said it's not normal
12:06a: lain: HMM
12:06a: lain: .dict abnormal
12:06a: Siren: --- [from wn] --- abnormal adj 1: not normal; not typical or usual or regular or conforming to a norm; "abnormal powers of concentration"; "abnormal amounts of rain"; "abnormal circumstances"; "an abnormal interest in food" [ant: {normal}] 2: departing from the normal in e.g. intelligence and development; "they were heartbroken when they learned their child was abnormal"; "an abnormal personality" [ant: {normal}] 3:
12:06a: Siren: much greater than the normal; "abnormal profits"; "abnormal ambition"
12:06a: lain: WOW
12:06a: lain: HOW ABOUT THAT
12:06a: lain: NOT NORMAL == ABNORMAL
12:06a: *** Adrian__ (adrian@phalse.2600.COM) joined #ca2600
12:06a: atari2600a: siren hurt my feelings
12:06a: atari2600a: /wrists
12:06a: Xiong: quote me where i said it was abnormal for humans to be autistic
12:06a: Xiong: i made the opposite statement
12:06a: atari2600a: Adrian__: are you rly thar or is it just your connection cutting out?
12:07a: lain: ah, i misread
12:07a: lain: so you're saying it's normal
12:07a: Xiong: you sure did
12:07a: lain: so, how is it normal?
12:07a: Xiong: you are misreading everything about us
12:07a: lain: .dict normal
12:07a: Siren: --- [from wn] --- normal adj 1: conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal; "serve wine at normal room temperature"; "normal diplomatic relations"; "normal working hours"; "normal word order"; "normal curiosity"; "the normal course of events" [ant: {abnormal}] 2: in accordance with scientific laws [ant: {paranormal}] 3: being approximately average or within
12:07a: Siren: certain limits in e.g. intelligence and development; "a perfectly normal child"; "of normal intelligence"; "the most normal person I've ever met" [ant: {abnormal}] 4: forming a right angle n : something regarded as a normative example; "the convention of not naming the main character"; "violence is the rule not the exception"; "his formula for impressing visitors" [syn: {convention}, {pattern}, {rule}, {formula}]
12:07a: Xiong: and it is rude
12:07a: lain: Xiong: that's subjective, mmkay
12:07a: Xiong: you would not dare to characterize african-americans as disordered or abnormal, would you?
12:08a: lain: lol
12:08a: lain: ok let me posit something here
12:08a: Xiong: how would you like it if i said that bisexes were sexually dysfunctional? or confused?
12:08a: lain: i have obsessive-compulsive disorder, been diagnosed by a professional, kk?
12:08a: lain: now
12:08a: lain: i COULD argue
12:08a: lain: that it's not a disorder
12:08a: lain: it's a state of being, it's a consequence of neurology / genetics / whatever the *** causes it, i don't know
12:08a: Xiong: i am not permitted to take media stereotypes and coffepot chatter and whip it into a general theory of bisex
12:09a: lain: but fact is
12:09a: Xiong: don't argue at all, unless you are autistic
12:09a: Xiong: autistics own the definition of autism
12:09a: lain: oh ok
12:09a: Xiong: just as gays own the definition of gay
12:09a: Xiong: nobody is permitted to say it is a disorder, a disease
12:10a: atari2600a: ...except Chuck Norris
12:10a: Xiong: -- not that a whole army of ignorant ppl do not do exactly that --
12:10a: lain: "Autism is a brain development disorder that impairs social interaction and communication, and causes restricted and repetitive behavior, all starting before a child is three years old. This set of signs distinguishes autism from milder autism spectrum disorders (ASD) such as Asperger syndrome."
12:10a: Xiong: but in polite convo, we understand that such ppl are not to be taken seriously
12:10a: Xiong: do you think making an ignorant comment is made better by putting quotes around it?
12:10a: Xiong: resort to authority is not logic
12:10a: lain: no, it's not an ignorant comment
12:11a: Xiong: tell me then why it is well-informed
12:11a: Xiong: did an autistic say that?
12:11a: *** rodent (r0d3nt@phalse.2600.COM) joined #ca2600
12:11a: lain: Xiong: was einstein smart?
12:11a: lain: did he say he was?
12:11a: lain: if not, he wasnt by your logic
12:11a: Xiong: you are evading the issue
12:11a: lain: but by reasoning
12:11a: lain: ok look
12:12a: lain: everything's relative
12:12a: Xiong: you just said a nasty thing and attempted to bolster it by putting it in quotes
12:12a: lain: no i didn't
12:12a: Xiong: retract it now or end the discussion
12:12a: lain: i took it from WIKI
12:12a: lain: ****
12:12a: lain: PEDIA
12:12a: Xiong: WP is an authority on nothingc
12:12a: lain: i know
12:12a: atari2600a: now probably wouldn't be a good time to say that Xiong hatex wp
12:12a: Xiong: it can be used to prove ducks fly
12:12a: lain: oh i'm well aware wikipedia isn't an authority on anything
12:12a: Xiong: then why dirty the convo with a hate comment from it?
12:13a: lain: because it's accurate
12:13a: Xiong: it is not accurate, you have no basis to say so
12:13a: lain: it's an observation
12:14a: lain: which i've not only seen for myself to verify
12:14a: Xiong: i observe that your sexual identity is a perversion
12:14a: Xiong: do you accept that?
12:14a: lain: that's an opinion and it doesnt bother me
12:14a: Xiong: fine
12:14a: lain: i can be very perverse at times, and i don't care
12:14a: Xiong: then you may have your opinion that i am diseased
12:14a: Xiong: and i will have my opinion that you are a fool
12:14a: atari2600a: *disordered
12:14a: troy: *** i have a zit the size of texas on my neck
12:14a: lain: and i observe that autism, to some degree effects social interaction
12:15a: Xiong: and so long as neither of us try to advance our idiot notions as fact, all will be well
12:15a: lain: again, i never said disease, i only said disorder
12:15a: atari2600a: troy: alcohol & needle nose pliers
12:15a: Xiong: disease, disorder, dysfunction, disability
12:15a: lain: as in differs from the normal order of things
12:15a: Xiong: all these negative labels
12:15a: lain: .dict disorder
12:15a: Siren: --- [from wn] --- disorder n 1: condition in which there is a disturbance of normal functioning; "the doctor prescribed some medicine for the disorder"; "everyone gets stomach upsets from time to time" [syn: {upset}] 2: a condition in which things are not in their expected places; "the files are in complete disorder" [syn: {disorderliness}] [ant: {orderliness}, {orderliness}] 3: a disturbance of the peace or of
12:15a: Siren: public order [ant: {order}] v 1: disturb in mind or make uneasy or cause to be worried or alarmed; "She was rather perturbed by the news that her father was seriously ill" [syn: {perturb}, {unhinge}, {disquiet}, {trouble}, {cark}, {distract}] 2: bring disorder to [syn: {disarray}] [ant: {order}]
12:15a: Xiong: it's very rude
12:15a: troy: atari2600a, i don't have bad acne -- this is just a one off
12:15a: lain: THAT IS NOT A NEGATIVE LABEL
12:15a: Xiong: look, tell you what
12:15a: lain: you're branding it as negative
12:15a: lain: it's not
12:15a: lain: it's neutral
12:15a: Xiong: you just go on down to the south side of chicago
12:16a: *** evilx (apache@pinky.ratman.org) joined #ca2600
12:16a: Xiong: and start tossing out what you think are acceptable labels for black ppl
12:16a: Xiong: and see if you get to decide what is or is not offensive
12:16a: Xiong: i am telling you clearly, i do not give you the right to characterize me
12:16a: Xiong: get me?
12:16a: lain: you very well have the right to decide that's offensive to you
12:17a: Xiong: it is offensive, rude, hate speech
12:17a: lain: but it is not, by its own nature, and of it's own accord, offensive
12:17a: Xiong: to try to describe me in any terms
12:17a: lain: you may take it that way
12:17a: lain: but it's not meant that way
12:17a: Xiong: and if i do, then that's the end of it
12:17a: lain: which means
12:17a: lain: that you're gathering a false notion from my words
12:17a: Xiong: because i am the one wearing the yellow star you are stapling on my chest
12:17a: evilx: im on the cgi irc
12:17a: evilx: so i dont have to be on my ipod
12:17a: evilx: whats up
12:18a: lain: i never stapled anything on your chest fuckwit
12:18a: Xiong: unless you concede to me the right to sit here on channel and badmouth you
12:18a: Xiong: pls don't badmouth me and my kind
12:18a: Xiong: autistics are human
12:18a: Xiong: we are not a disease
12:18a: Xiong: you are out of line
12:18a: lain: i never said you weren't human
12:18a: lain: and i never, ever said disease
12:18a: Xiong: you are out of line
12:18a: lain: i said disorder
12:18a: Xiong: get me?
12:18a: lain: it's NOT the same thing
12:18a: lain: i'm not out of line
12:18a: Xiong: you are not talking about you, you are talking about me
12:19a: lain: i'm well aware of that
12:19a: Xiong: then shut up
12:19a: lain: i'm talking in generalizations actually
12:19a: Xiong: you are done
12:19a: lain: so really
12:19a: Xiong: way overdone
12:19a: lain: this has nothign to do with me
12:19a: Xiong: don't you dare generalize about another group of ppl
12:19a: lain: hey guess what, by your logic, you can't define me in any way, or my state of being
12:19a: lain: so guess what
12:19a: lain: you can't say i'm done
12:19a: Xiong: you need to be quiet
12:19a: lain: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
12:19a: lain: don't generalize?
12:19a: lain: DONT GENERALIZE?
12:19a: lain: look
12:19a: Xiong: i'm being quite specific
12:20a: lain: i'm not a huge fan of generalizations
12:20a: Xiong: you are being very rude
12:20a: lain: i know they can be OFFENSIVE
12:20a: Xiong: labelling members of another group
12:20a: Xiong: don't do it
12:20a: Xiong: you would not have it done to you
12:20a: lain: but generalizations are necessary for talking about a general group
12:20a: lain: which have something in common
12:20a: Xiong: and you know damn well that other groups would not tolerate it
12:20a: lain: like males
12:20a: lain: not all men are assholes
12:20a: lain: not all men are nice
12:20a: Xiong: if you want to learn about autism, ask questions
12:20a: Xiong: you don't know anything about it
12:21a: Xiong: and you should not speak from ignorance
12:21a: lain: but men, in general, AS A GENERALIZATION, have a penis
12:21a: lain: which is why they're called men
12:21a: lain: women, on the other hand, tend not to have a penis
12:21a: lain: therefore they are women
12:21a: lain: that says nothing about them other than they are men or women, or otherwise
12:21a: atari2600a: what if they have both?
12:21a: lain: atari2600a: which is why generalizations arent perfect
12:21a: lain: but they're effective when discussing a group of people with a common trait
12:21a: evilx: code:lain
12:21a: evilx: ***
12:21a: atari2600a: aww
12:21a: lain: such as people with autism
12:21a: evilx: lain my sister a drinker like me
12:21a: lain: or people with OCD
12:22a: lain: or people with ADD
12:22a: lain: it says nothing about the people themselves
12:22a: lain: it does not define their lifestyles
12:22a: Xiong: lain if you continue to spout anti-autistic hate speech i will look to take action
12:22a: Xiong: you are not listening to reason
12:22a: Xiong: i may not be able to get you banned but i will certainly fight you
12:22a: lain: Xiong: you can't claim to be part of a group of people, then state generalizations are bad is what i'm getting at
12:22a: Xiong: either be quiet or moderate your venom
12:22a: atari2600a: IRC FIGHT!
12:23a: lain: i probably dont have anything in common with other people with OCD, or bipolar disorder, or anything else i may have
12:23a: evilx: hat irc fight
12:23a: evilx: what
12:23a: evilx: that *** slapped me
12:23a: lain: but i'm still part of that generalized group
12:23a: evilx: that ***
12:23a: evilx: what ***
12:24a: evilx: lain your the only *** in the channel ,did you slap me?
12:24a: evilx: lain did you grab my ***, it ok if you did, but dude that just wrong
12:25a: *** lain is lain@pinky.ratman.org (lain)
12:25a: *** lain is on channels @#gay2600 %#ca2600
12:25a: *** lain is on IRC via madjack.2600.net (Avast, ye scurvy sea dogs!)
12:26a: lain: all i've said about autism is that it's not the norm, and it *generally* tends to impair social function/interaction
12:27a: Xiong: don't say it again
12:27a: Xiong: you've said worse
12:27a: lain: dont say what again?
12:27a: Xiong: say nothing, it's usually best
12:27a: lain: the fact that you're taking offense to general statements is NOT my fault
12:27a: lain: it's your own fault for misconstrueing(sp?) what i'm saying
12:27a: Xiong: don't make any more general statements about autistics
12:27a: lain: into something offensive
12:27a: Xiong: i'm one
12:27a: lain: what's wrong with general statements
12:27a: Xiong: you're obviously not
12:28a: Xiong: i'm not going to debate you further
12:28a: lain: even if i was, i wouldn't take offense to general statements
12:28a: *** evilx has signed off (Quit: CGI:IRC - pinky.ratman.org (EOF))
12:28a: lain: that's WHY they're general statements
12:28a: Xiong: do not make negative comments about the group of ppl to which i belong
12:28a: lain: when did i make a negative comment?
12:28a: Xiong: that is the most polite request you're going to get
12:28a: Xiong: everything you've said is in the log
12:28a: Xiong: say nothing more, you've said quite enough already
12:28a: lain: no
12:29a: lain: tell me
12:29a: Xiong: i won't dignify your dirt by quoting it
12:29a: lain: i'm asking an honest question here
12:29a: Xiong: no you're not
12:29a: *** evilx (apache@pinky.ratman.org) joined #ca2600
12:29a: Xiong: i've told you clearly, your remarks are unacceptable
12:29a: evilx: I was going to get another drink
12:29a: Xiong: now you either stop or we fight
12:29a: lain: Xiong: TO OYU
12:29a: lain: YOU*
12:29a: lain: specifically
12:29a: evilx: but I walk into the front room and my sister hanging out with her new bf or person
12:29a: lain: ok, let's.
12:29a: evilx: and didnt want to bother them, so I am back
12:29a: evilx: I am sorta in my sister room on her compute
12:29a: atari2600a: BF or BFF?
12:30a: atari2600a: or FB
12:30a: evilx: dude
12:30a: *** Mode change "+b *!*Xiong*@*" on #ca2600 by lain
12:30a: *** Xiong was kicked off #ca2600 by lain (grow up)
* * *
* * *
Xiong Changnian
xiong@mochamail.com
You must be the change you want to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
