Aspies For Freedom

Well, I can clear up one thing - there's no correlation between subdivisions within autism & politics. I've seen people of all functioning levels espouse beliefs anywhere along the right/left line.

On this site, most people tend towards the left side of politics - but this has more to do with this being an autistic rights site, rather than because of any form of autism. If you look at wrong planet, or other aspie social sites, all sorts of people turn up.

It's possible that autistic people are slightly more likely to lean towards the left, due to having experienced some form of discrimination - but the actual neurology doesn't have much to do with political beliefs.

It's an interesting subject - there was an earlier thread on the site about right wing/left wing brains actually interpreting the world differently, but I'm not entirely sold on that (i.e. it seems more a "chicken or the egg" scenario), and in any case, I'm pretty sure it's seperate to autism.

As far as Elitism in the autistic community, there's a lot of contexts in which the term is used:

The most common one is when people say that aspies or autistics are "better" than NT's in some way. This isn't the same thing as saying aspies tend to be better at a specific skill - it's more about general statements that aspies or autistics are "better" overall.

Another use of the phrase is when the divide between Aspies, HFA, and LFA is emphasised in some way. This could be an aspie saying they're better or smarter than autistics, or low functioning autistics. It could be autistic person saying aspies shouldn't be on the spectrum. It could be a verbal person saying that non-verbal people have the "bad" kind of autism, whereas they have the "good" kind.

Essentially, it's not so easy to define differences on the spectrum, and splitting them into AS/HFA/LFA often seems quite arbitrary. There's no single skill that defines the difference between high & low functioning - a person could be called LFA because they are non-verbal, have many sensory issues, have motor control issues, cognitive difficulties, or even occasionally because they just act "odd" in some way. There's no definition for it, so the label usually has more to do with the personal preferences of the particular psychologist, rather than having any actual meaning.

The other place I've seen the term used is in group wars - some people think particular autistic groups have better people than others, rather than looking at the individual people within that group. The most notorious of these is "AFF vs WP".

This is especially nonsensical, as the two sites serve entirely different purposes - it's like asking if a car is better than an orchard. In general, though not always, people come to AFF when they have some interest in autistic politics, and they go to WP when they want to socialise, or participate in "chat politics".

There is a very different culture on each of the two sites, and some people prefer one over the other. But all sorts of people are on both sites, and the individuals aren't "better" for belonging to one site or another.

Not to mention that quite a few people are active on both sites...

A True Monotheist Wrote:

The other place I've seen the term used is in group wars - some people think particular autistic groups have better people than others, rather than looking at the individual people within that group. The most notorious of these is "AFF vs WP".

ATM: Now you've got me curious. How does AFF supposedly "have it better" than its rivals? Or worse?

What exactly is that argument as it is framed? That does not mean you agree with the assumptions, but can I at least understand it a little better. I was accused of being on one side or the other, or both, I do not remember. Being a little unsubtle on social cues---very unsubtle---I do need some help here.

All the best,

The most commonly expressed sentiments are that WP people are prejudiced, shallow, cruel, or that they "hate AFF". Ironically, WP often has threads saying the exact same things about this site. It's a bit of a shame, really.

I just had a quick look through your posts, and I think the one you might be referring to is here.

I suspect what you were accused of related to this:

A True Monotheist Wrote:

I am a member of the Spectrum. This is a privilege, not a "disability." I stand in a long line of people on the Spectrum, and I intend to do them credit by my actions.

I applaud the statement, but I can see how some people may have misinterpreted it as you saying that autistic people were better than NTs.

I don't think it's too big a deal, though - if anyone questions you on it, just clarify what you meant.

I used to think, thank you God, that you made me a

gifted but awkward, rejected, lonely, maybe loner Aspie who at least earns a living and pays taxes, gobbled up quite a bit of higher education, and would probably make a good husband when discovered.

instead of a

non-verbal low-functioning autistic requiring a lifetime of supervised care (with all the nightmares parents have of plate spinning, feces smearing, undressing in public, and even more embarassing from that point on)

Maybe the two are not that different: we have seen that some "LFA" are people with hidden abilities, only trapped inside their minds.
We're trapped too, in another way, not so severely, but still painfully in an unforgiving culture: not able to reach jobs or romantic bliss. Because we don't know how to reach them all the way, we need their help to reach us in the middle, but most of the time, their attitude is to disappear or die: there are plenty of them for them to deal with, and they are used to themselves. Only the smallest fringe of them would actually dare to murder us, but many more would not mind if we disappear.

I understand now that it may be possible to literally help an occasional "LFA" person out (of the barriers that trap him or her). We are only starting to understand what LFAs perceive and it blows our assumptions and prejudices aside.

Incidentally, what AS and HFA perceive would set aside prejudices too. USA Today had reported some time ago that Yale researchers had suggested that Aspie adults did not have parental or romantic aspirations. It is a lot easier to get thoughts and feelings from an Aspie than it is from an LFA. It does make me despair on occasion to think I would never have a romantic personhood, though I do agree I do not really care for fatherhood. At most I would have a single child, and I do concede it would be a long shot, even at age 37.

A True Monotheist Wrote:

B"H

Hello.  Thank you for responding to my query.  I thought I understood the HFA/LFA debate.  However, maybe I do not.  I might need to have it fleshed out a little better.

My previous perception was that it was mainly a difference in perception between camps, the Aspies positioning themselves more on the Right, the other Spectrumites more on the egalitarian Left.  However, it appears that neither are storming the Paris barricades.  So, maybe I do not have the correct understanding of what the debate is.

Furthermore, I have tried everything to avoid "Aspie elitism," a term that I have heard a few people use.  I will therefore ask the Forum to comment on that concept.  Based on my writings, have I done enough to challenge any elitism?  Can someone explain what this elitism actually is, from their perspective?

I am not sure which side of the HFA/LFA side I am actually on.  For one thing, I have indeed been the victim of a real act of discrimination, something that I assume that HFA folks do not experience.  An evaluation was written about me from an Instructor who herself had an auditory processing issue, one that was extremely disparaging.  One remark on this evaluation claimed that I spoke above the level of my peers, making conversation impossible.  That can be rude, mind you; but consider that my "peers" are future High School teachers!  This person had the gall to say to me, "Whenever I have dealt with people like you, my heart is always broken."  I had come out to her about Asperger, and it was clear from the context of the conversation what she meant.

This bizarre discrimination included a report that was filed in my record.  It has not been removed, in spite of my request.  It is difficult to prove, but I believe that this is part of a broader Anti-Semitic campaign that includes a broad coalition of forces.  As I said before, I disagree with 8Magus8 on many particulars, but he is right in stating that there are conspiracies.  They really do exist.

One of the ring-leaders of the secret campaign against me was a member of a powerful organization that opposes Torah values.  While this sounds crazy, it is true.  It is one thing for her to believe as she does.  It is another thing to practice oppression over others.  I will discuss this conspiracy no further, save perhaps on PM, because it is not the focus of where I want to go on this Forum.  I am simply making a point that as an Aspie, who is probably not Autistic by some classifications, I am not immune to blatant societal discrimination of an appalling sort.

So, while spending most of my life as an NT, I can say that others had to have known who I was before I did.  It must have been obvious that there was something different about this guy.  And, education is one of the most bigoted areas of our society, run by people who are Administrators first, not teachers.  They care more about politics and budgets than kids and teachers.  I am one of the few NEA members to honestly say that I might consider homeschooling.

Well, alright, I am rambling.  To the point, help me understand the whole debate.  What side do "LFA" folks tend to take?  What side does "my side" tend to take?  While my sense is that the HFA side tends toward the Right, while the others tend toward Social Democracy, socialism or Anarchism, I do not want to make any further assumptions.

Now, one rule.  I would like this to be on the point, and not about personal attack.  If it degenerates in to the latter, I will ask Zakkie to seal up the thread.  Furthermore, I will not discuss the movement against me any more on-Forum, so please do not ask me to explain it further except, perhaps, through PM.  Finally, I do not want any more talk about "Gangs" here.

I will make but one comment on the "Gangs" issue.  When any Forum is divided like this one is, I believe that we can always wonder if a dark hand is at work.  I believe that some of  the N*zis survived WWII through Operation Paperclip.  They are the real force behind Middle Eastern terrorism.  And, our current President's grandfather was one of their backers (the Bushes being generational Yalies steeped in dark secret societies).  This is not "conspiracy."  It is fact.  Other wealthy Americans supported the Th*rd Re*ch as well.  One hopes that they will make amends.

Some of the N*zis that were brought to America committed horrible experiments on Autistic children.  It is not inconceivable that these forces have created an artificial division between Aspies and Autistics, and may have convinced some of the former that they are part of the "master race," preventing them from loving the lattergroup.  Those who buy in to such a concept are acting as fools.  My hope is that they wake up.  And, I encourage any and all of you to never listen to them, no matter how smooth their tongue is, no matter how well they write or speak.

So, without most people in the gangs realizing it, I believe that a manipulation could be at work.  Again, I do not want to discuss this too much further, because my point is the Light.  However, I feel that it is my duty to give this as a warning.  My hope for this thread is to contribute to the overcoming of any HFA/LFA divide, and to bring people together.  I hope that it contributes to that purpose.

Alright, I have stepped in to it again.  Go for it while I duck!

All the best,

Okay, now you've gone and made a paranoid person even more paranoid... Sad

Now, do I need to rethink my entire life in the context that "manipulation" is going on behind the scenes, and it includes people who noticed something different about me...?

Paranoia is destructive, in my opinion. It very often has no basis in reality.

A True Monotheist Wrote:

What if I said I'm sitting at the top of this conspiracy (with about 2-3 others), and I'm operating under another name on WP, without divulging my AFF identity thereabouts...?

I am sure Aspies and autistics get offended when parents and others want to eliminate so-called dysfunctions from their children. It gets personal to remove their wiring.

But I do understand where the parents are coming from, they want to help their children out of their brain traps, it is not entirely a matter of embarassments here there and everywhere. Yes they do fear strangers having to care for them their kids long after they the parents are dead. Add to that Oh my G*d, no marriage, no kids, no career, it is a shock to the parents and their dreams.

I will try to rent it from my Blockbuster.

And yes, neither of my parents lived to see either my brother or I marry or have kids. Although after being unemployed so long, Mom was merely happy I was stably employed like my (possibly Aspie) brother (also a computer programmer/Web developer)

I wonder if you would define what you thinking when you say low and high functioning.
I would vote in your poll but I need to be clear what I am voting for.

It's a spectrum - where is the line?

Also - May you could ask Zacchie to edit this post and put your poll up on this thread.

Kind regards ATM!

A True Monotheist Wrote:

ATM: I would offer to help you coordinate it better, because as it is I can see it unraveling. Rolleyes

Don't worry, Batman55. I am really not very paranoid. It is more a case of job discrimination than anything beyond that. I can document it, unlike other theories that are without a paper trail. I hope it never reaches the Courts. And, Batman55, take this as a compliment; you are not cut out for this crowd. They don't take honest people.

I'd never want to be affiliated with anyone in this "crowd" you allude to.

But I want to know what the name of their "club" is. Is this the infamous "Illuminati"...? Tongue Basically, what names do these clubs operate under?

My fault, I tend to ask too many questions, even when the issue has died down. I am overly curious about certain kinds of things, paranoid conspiracies being one of them.

I'm sorry, I wasn't going to buy into this thread, but what does this mean?

Quote:

I would hope that we at least teach our children about their Aspie heritage, and hope that they carry on its traditions and institutions.

I am not aware of any Aspie "traditions", and the only "institutions" I can think of are the ones misdiagnosed Aspies have been locked up in in days gone by. It's not a sacred order, it's a neurological condition.

I really don't buy this 'there are so few female Aspies' theory, either. I think the alleged gender imbalance has much more to do with the fact that Aspergers often presents itself differently in women, and diagnosticians can't recognise it. Tony Attwood's writings back this up - I don't have the link handy, but can probably dig it out if anyone wants it.

A True Monotheist Wrote:

I am curious. Is there a movement afoot to radically deny civil rights to Autistics? Does this movement have official standing? Voting restrictions? That type of thing? Such a movement has strong precedents in American history...

I think it's important to remember that while there are people seeking to restrict the civil rights of autistic people, they aren't the usual sorts of bigots you're referring to above. They are basically good, but extremely misguided people. With a few exceptions, of course.

Not many people would seek to restrict the voting rights of autistic people - they haven't set out to restrict rights for the sake of restricting rights. They are, however, happy to restrict rights in far worse ways in the name of "helping".

There is no more disturbing force than compassion mixed with delusion. In the case of autism, compassion is wanted to help people, and the accompanying delusion is that different equals "wrong". Or to expand even further, the delusion is that making us "normal" is the same as helping, and that this is more important that basic human rights, or quality of life.

So you'll never see autistic people being disallowed the right to vote. What you will see is this:

Autistic people being tortured in the name of treatment (as in the Judge Rotenburg Centre).

Autistic people being denied freedom of expression (ABA, non autistic-friendly workspaces, various parenting techniques).

Autistic people being slandered as a group (Pity campaigning for charities, "heartwarming" news stories of parents struggling with their childs autism).

Autistic people being seen as "less worthy" than other people (Lower sentences for parents killing autistic children).

Autistic people being exposed to dangerous, and occasionally deadly, treatments by parents (chelation, extreme diets, exorcism, white noise helmets).

And, ultimately, autistic people being wiped out (pre-natal testing plus negative publicity campaigns).

The worst thing about it is that the people doing these things aren't evil - they're doing it out of love. And occasionally out of fear, but still mostly love.

Basically, love + pity = bad news for everyone.

So, I'm not really sure what the solution is, except to keep on doing what we're doing now - or perhaps to do much more of it, on a bigger scale...

A True Monotheist Wrote:

What you will see is this:

Autistic people being tortured in the name of treatment (as in the Judge Rotenburg Centre).

Autistic people being denied freedom of expression (ABA, non autistic-friendly workspaces, various parenting techniques).

Tell me more.

A True Monotheist Wrote:

Autistic people being slandered as a group (Pity campaigning for charities, "heartwarming" news stories of parents struggling with their childs autism).

Autistic people being seen as "less worthy" than other people (Lower sentences for parents killing autistic children).

They are out of line.

atypical Wrote:

That statement above needs to be qualified a bit - I realize that those with problems or issues they are currently dealing with need to be introspective (at least) and that anxiety needs to be properly dealt with personally - I was speaking about those in regular real world dealings and suggesting that focussing only on what affects oneself instead of a more big picture view... and spending time communicating too much with any old NT all about how things affect you and where on the spectrum you think you fall and all that will not help you and may worsen the way others treat you.

I can not seem to be able to communicate coherently here - I give up -sorry that I wrote somuch crap - I can barley undersatnd where I am coming from here...

I'm glad you qualified your statement, atypical. I find as someone with Asperger's, it's very hard for me to understand myself, and even harder for others. I don't think introspection has been harmful for me, if anything it's shown me that I have limitations, and that I don't need to think I *should* be doing X or Y just because "most NTs at my age do X or Y."

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