Aspies For Freedom

Full Version: Terri Schiavo and disability rights
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Amy Wrote:
Even her husband is arguing that its about her human rights. That she has the right to die because she requested it.

Amy, when I mentioned turning it into an argument for or against human rights, I was not applying that just to one side of the argument.

What counts for those opposing her husband's position counts for him and those supporting his decision, too.

There's a lot of iffy stuff being brushed over on both sides, but both jump to turning it away from a very sad tragedy to distract from those glitches by making it about some "cause" or other.

The only cause directly related to this tragedy (the danger of the less "visible" eating disorders and their horrific consequences), sadly seems to be getting the least attention.  :-(

Nemidaelius Wrote:
My grand motehr also was Alzheimers, she died beofre I ever really got to know her.  

That's sad although it can be so sad and painful to watch a person you knew and loved fall apart before your eyes. The scary bit about Alzheimers is that every now and again there can be episodes of relative cognitive clarity, and for some people this is where they get really scared and depressed and attempt to kill themselves (presumably because they briefly become aware that they are falling apart inside their own heads).

A girl in my school had a grandmother with Alzheimer's, and she frequently ran away and spoke of wanting to kill herself in those brief phases of clarity. Unfortunately, she managed it in the end, while she was in respite care for the weekend - it took her husband a long time to"forgive himself" because he felt guilty for letting her stay there every now and again (so he could rest and recover himself)  Sad

My non-relted aunt also has Alzheimers and I feel so sorry for her. She is doing her best to preserve her memory and is such a sweet lady, but her husband (my Mum's brother) is one of the nastier characters in my family who has tyrannised and controlled his family for a long time to cater for his phobias (he does not like cash and even the smallest transaction needs to be made by cheque etc. which is hard as in Switzerland cash cards are not used as much yet as they are elsewhere) and health problems and has absolutely no sympathy for anyone or anything, it's all about his own pain or problems. (I guess this is the darker side of AS traits?)

It's such a shame because with the right support and stimulation, Alzheimers and Dementia can be countered and delayed quite well but I don't see how she is going to get any of that if she just spends the rest of her life as something akin to a slave or servant to him.

Brightman Wrote:
I don't hate you MrCoffee Smile

I just think you're a hypocrite.

I second that.

MrCoffee, people can disagree with things you say - that does not mean they hate you. There are many reasons for disagreeing with some of the things you posted on this thread (hypocrisy and misrepresentation of what people were saying for one), but disagreeing with someone just because you hate them is not a valid reason for disagreement, IMHO.

By convincing yourself that anyone who disagrees with you is either a Nazi or hates you, you are not giving anyone a chance to explain their views after you've distorted them and stamped them off as some sort of propaganda or other.

Amy Wrote:
:cry:  That is so sad, what message are kids getting about this whole case, that its ok to let someone starve to death?
That kid had more heart and care than her own husband.

OK so if you express the wish to be allowed to die in peace if you ever got so severely injured or brain damaged that your brain got pulped to a mush, would you be burning in hell because you decided not to keep your dead shell of a body artificially zombified and your dignity perverted into a cheap tool to boost the agendas of a variety of religious and political extremist movements?  Sad

How can you compare this to "leaving someone to starve to death" like they were locking her in a room depriving her of food while she wails and begs for food?  :-(

Nemidaelius Wrote:
that last point is absurd.  Schiavo is brain dead.  Her mind/soul/consciousness/whatever you want to call it is NO MORE.
SHES GONE AND SHE AINT COMING BACK.
even the most profound autistic has cognitive function, he'she is a thinking human being, even if they are unable to share their thoughts.  Shaivo has NO COGNITIVE FUNCTION.  The person called Terri Schaivo died 15 years ago.  If God exists, may he/she/it/they rest her soul.

While I do agree that everything that made Terri Terri is dead, and that you can't compare extensive damage to the cerebral cortex (effective destruction) to differences in wiring in autism, it is not true that she is "brain dead".

Brain death is defined by brain STEM death. Incidentally, the brain stem (which is responsible for primitive reflexes, breathing, digestion etc.) is the only part of her brain that still does work.

Gareth Wrote:
Her mind must remain, have you seen the video footage?


Heavily edited, down from 4 1/4 hours to a few minutes, footage?

If the full-length footage (used in the actual trials) was available, it might me more suitable to base judgement on.

Gareth Wrote:
Any reaction shows that she does indeed still have her conciousness

Have you ever heard of reflexes?

Sticking an electrode in a severed frog's leg will make it move. Does that make it conscious?

Gareth Wrote:
If she is reacting to her family, then she must still be aware of who they are. That was my point.

I see. Well the thing is I have not been there an observed this, nor has anyone else on here. The medical reports, including the official ones from her parents's doctors (rather than some of the dubious "experts" who "diagnosed" her solely by watching the edited clips), seem pretty unanimous insofar as stating that what we see is reflexes.

Personally, I do not know what to think without having seen and observed her. From a purely medical PoV yes it seems she is beyond help and her movements are nothing to do with consciousness, but of course that is not enough to make up one's mind.

One thing you do have to be cautious with though is the danger of letting emotional responses overrule logic, and anthromorphosising movements and reflexes that simply aren't there in a coherent sense.

Incidentally this actually links in with the whole "theory of mind" thing in autism as well, and in reading intention and emotion into inanimate and animate matter:

Quote:
Some observers of Terri Schiavo find her behavior indicative of conscious awareness and intentionality.  One observer, writing on the website terrisfight.org wrote: “I was pleasantly surprised to observe Terri’s purposeful and varied behaviors... I never imagined Terri would be so active, curious, and purposeful.

She watched people intently, obviously was attempting to communicate with each one in various ways and with various facial expressions and sounds.”  For me, watching Terri Schiavo in the website videos, it was difficult not feel I was seeing a person interacting with others and aware of her surroundings.

However, clinical and experimental neuroscience have taught us some surprising things about the range of behaviors that can emerge from a decorticate brain.  Such behaviors include orienting with eye and head movements toward sights and sounds, generating facial expressions, and producing nonverbal vocalizations that have meaning for us, if not the person producing them, such as cries and laughter.  In light of this, we must interpret the behavior seen in the videos cautiously and with a measure of skepticism.

The most natural interpretation for the behaviors we see on the video is not the only interpretation.  For example, when a dozing Terri is loudly ordered to “open your eyes!” and does so, does that mean she understood what was said?  Or would she have done the same thing if roused with an equally loud order to “open your mouth!” or “stand on your head!”

Humans are hardwired to interpret the behavior of others in terms of mental states.  In the psychology literature this tendency is part of a suite of abilities termed “Theory of Mind” (ToM) and in most situations we apply our ToM automatically, without weighing alternative reasons for the behavior.

For a particularly striking demonstration of this fact about ourselves, consider the typical response to the robot Kismet.  Kismet is part of a research effort at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab to design machines that interact socially with humans.

Kismet has been programmed to gaze at humans who approach it, orient to salient objects moving within its field of view, pull back avoidantly if an object is thrust forward at it, and so on.

People attribute all manner of cognitive and emotional states to this robot on the basis of a fairly small set of simple behaviors, and have been known to become quite attached to it.  And this is a contraption made of metal and plastic, not a human being!

My point is emphatically not to liken Terry Schiavo to Kismet, but rather to suggest a similarity in our reactions to the woman and the robot.

http://blog.bioethics.net/2005/03/terri-...icist.html

Inane conspiracy theories aside, how about some info on more recent brain scans and EEGs:

Quote:
Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, assessed Schiavo's brain function in 2001 as part of a court-ordered assessment. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying "[Schiavo] has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region." [11] (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dl...80350/1006)

Three Florida neurologists viewed 12 of Schiavo's CT scans on March 22 [12] (http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/CT%20scan.png). After viewing the scans, Dr. Leon Prockop (a professor and former chairman of the neurology department at the University of South Florida's College of Medicine) was quoted by the Sun-Sentinel as saying that Schiavo's scan exhibits the "most severe brain damage as I've ever seen". Dr. Walter Bradley, the chairman of neurology at the University of Miami's Miller School of Medicine, said that he "doubts there's any activity going on in the higher levels of her brain". [13] (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity...213061.htm)

In 2002, a trial was held to determine whether or not any new therapy treatments would help Schiavo restore any cognitive function. A new computed axial tomography scan (CAT scan) was done, and showed severe cerebral atrophy. An EEG showed no measurable brain activity.

Pay particular attention to the bold, italic and red bits:

Quote:
Medical opinions

The lack of oxygen to the brain suffered after Schiavo's heart attack in 1990 caused catastrophic brain damage. Schiavo's cerebral cortex has been completely destroyed and replaced by cerebrospinal fluid. The upper brain is about 80 percent destroyed, and there is also damage to the lower brain. The only part of the brain that remains intact is the brain stem, which controls functions such as breathing and heartbeat—allowing Schiavo to survive (with a feeding tube) even though she no longer has any cognitive function.

Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, assessed Schiavo's brain function in 2001 as part of a court-ordered assessment. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying "[Schiavo] has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region." [11] ( http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dl...80350/1006 )

Three Florida neurologists viewed 12 of Schiavo's CT scans on March 22 [12] ( http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/CT%20scan.png ). After viewing the scans, Dr. Leon Prockop (a professor and former chairman of the neurology department at the University of South Florida's College of Medicine) was quoted by the Sun-Sentinel as saying that Schiavo's scan exhibits the "most severe brain damage as I've ever seen". Dr. Walter Bradley, the chairman of neurology at the University of Miami's Miller School of Medicine, said that he "doubts there's any activity going on in the higher levels of her brain". [13] ( http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity...213061.htm )

In 2002, a trial was held to determine whether or not any new therapy treatments would help Schiavo restore any cognitive function. A new computed axial tomography scan (CAT scan) was done, and showed severe cerebral atrophy. An EEG showed no measurable brain activity.

Five doctors were selected to provide their expert opinions to the trial: two by Schiavo's parents, two by Michael Schiavo, and one by the court.

These five doctors examined Terri Schiavo's medical records, brain scans, the videos, and Schiavo herself. The physicians were divided in their conclusions.

The two doctors selected by Schiavo's parents (one of whom was a radiologist, not a neurologist; the other of whom made several claims about therapies supposedly developed by him which the court found spurious) supported their conclusion; the two doctors selected by Schiavo's husband and the doctor appointed by the court supported Mr. Schiavo's position.

Greer ruled with the latter that Terri Schiavo was in a PVS and was beyond hope of significant improvement. [14] ( http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt )

Florida's Second District Court of Appeal reviewed all the evidence and upheld the trial court's decision, saying had they heard the case themselves they would have ruled the same as Greer. Judge Greer reviewed a six-hour tape of Schiavo and concluded that her vegetative condition was factual and not subject to legal dispute.

Schiavo could be evaluated with a PET scan in her current condition. However, an MRI cannot be done without first surgically removing experimental electrodes which were implanted within her brain in 1992, something that Michael Schiavo has chosen not to do. [15] ( http://www.nationalreview.com/script/pri...160848.asp )

At any rate, neither a PET nor an MRI could change the fundamental finding of both X-rays and CAT, which is that over 50 percent of Terri's brain is destroyed.
...
Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care. Due to the attention she has received in the 15 years she has been bedridden, Terri Schiavo has never developed any bedsores.

Raising the issue of a possible conflict of interest is the fact that Mr. Schiavo stands to inherit the remainder of Mrs. Schiavo's malpractice settlement upon her death. Mr. Schiavo has publicly responded to this charge by claiming that of the original $1,050,000 awarded in the malpractice suit, less than $50,000 is left, the rest having been spent under a judge's supervision on medical care for Mrs. Schiavo and the ongoing legal battle. He had also had a contract drafted stating that should the Schindlers refrain from any further legal action, he will donate whatever his inheritance may be to charity. The Schindlers refused the offer.

On March 11, 2005, media tycoon Robert Herring (who believes that embryonic stem cell research could cure Schiavo's condition in the future) offered $1 million to Michael Schiavo if he agreed to waive his guardianship to his wife's parents. The offer was rejected, Schiavo having reportedly found it "offensive". Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, stated that Schiavo has received other monetary offers, also rejected, including one of $10 million. These offers may have been made under the misconception that the removal of Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube remains simply a matter of Mr. Schiavo's choice. It was ruled in February 2000 that Mrs. Schiavo would choose to have the tube removed, and Michael Schiavo does not have legal standing to overrule this legal determination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo

Dolly Wrote:
The Wikipedia is not neutral, anyone can edit it to say whatever they want.

.. only if it is backed up by facts (such as copies of legal documents, medical records etc. in journals and official sites).

The documents discussing her medical state are linked on the page, they are genuine reports based on scans and EEGs done three years ago.

Amy Wrote:
What Dolly has said is true, wikipedians do not have to prove statements with legal facts, articles are often written and re-written extensively, and there are battles on some with opinions being offered for either side, the autism pages have been an example of that.

As things stand, unproven claims are being deleted from that article, and others toned down on request.

So regardless of whether you choose to discredit the whole entry because you dislike what it says, the medical reviews that are linked are solid. There's 20% of her cerebral cortex remaining, mostly scarred, and there's NOTHING on the EEG.

Amy Wrote:
That article, right now, yes, but that is because that article will be recieving a lot of attention. On wikipedia as a whole people write their views and theories
and it stands unless someone writes something else, in a few weeks people will have re-written the Terry Schiavo article and probaly put numerous other facts in there.

Yeah that is true - that's partly why I copied it here rather than just link to it, because the links it contains are quite good, too.

I also found this if anyone is interested, it's about Terri, who she was before her heart attack etc.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7290818/

RIP Terri - I hope people remember her as more than just a sensationalist news story  :cry:

Brightman Wrote:
I think that soon she will be remembered as 'the first, but not the last', I think there are going to be many more after this  Sad

Well yes of coruse there will be more. The better we get at bringing people back from the dead (by restarting their hearts 5, 10 or more minutes after they effectively DIED), the more people we will have who are alive in body but not in brain.

Amy Wrote:
I think he was referring to people who would be killed or "alllowed to die" for the convenience of others.

In that case, it's only speculation and conspiracy theorists that even SAY this and I don't see it as a precedent.

But yes, there will be more cases where people "hang around" in a state where it's not possible to tell for a long time if they are still "in there", and that IS due to better technology.

The only reason why Terri was even alive for all these horrible court dramas to happen was because she was revived after her heart had stopped beating for a relatively long time. Cases like that are far more extreme (as far as damage to the brain is concerned) than they used to be, because not too long ago (maybe 20, 30 years) once your heart stopped for more than a minute or so, that's it, you were a "goner".

But cases of such relatively extreme damage from lack of oxygen ARE getting more frequent the better we (as in humans) get at reviving people, and the longer we can still revive them after the heart stopped beating, through better technology etc.

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