Aspies For Freedom

Full Version: Acceptance Versus Cure
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Is this person suggesting that people with Asperger's have no right to have our own autism-inspired problems, because she has to do put so much more effort into "seeming normal" every day, than we do?

That's what I see... there's jealousy in her words about AS.

Batman55 Wrote:
Is this person suggesting that people with Asperger's have no right to have our own autism-inspired problems, because she has to put so much more effort into "seeming normal" every day, than we do?


correction

It would be nice if she could find a level of self acceptance instead of pinning her hopes on cure - that's not going to happen for her. Life must have been very hard to her -  her self esteem seems  low.

Ethel Wrote:
An interesting read - thanks for sharing.  I agree listening to different points of view is healthy, rather than just shouting 'no cure!'

I know where she's coming from.  In my introductory post on AFF I said I'd take a cure if there was one, IF I knew it wouldn't have side effects, or damage the things I'm good at.  If there was something that would just remove the need to stim, for instance, or fix the social cues business, I'd take it in a moment.  

There's a big difference between wanting a cure for oneself and wanting to cure everyone on the spectrum, and remove autism from the gene pool totally.  And there's a big difference between not wanting a cure for yourself, and denying a cure to those who do want it.  Sorry, I'm rambling.  I hope this is making sense.

I don't agree with the writer's strict definitions of the various kinds of autism.  I can fluctuate anywhere between totally passing for normal, to my usual 'there's something ever so slightly wrong with her but we're not sure what' state, to practically nonverbal.  I think we all do that to some extent, under the right/wrong conditions.


How dare you say you want a cure, in my presence?  No cure!!

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:

Of course her self-esteem seems low - she was brought up by people who, instead of loving her as she is, treated her like a waste of space and effort because of who she isn't (i.e. perfect)


At the end of my son's schooling his self esteem was zero, he was suicidal. (He didn't get his diagnosis till later).

I loved him heaps and I tried hard to help him to cope. His peers made him feel like a waste of space and effort.

It seems wrong that acceptance has to come as a 'versus' - maybe I misunderstand the interpretation on the word 'versus'.

anbuend Wrote:
The part where expressive language outstrips receptive is confusing to some people, but I do identify with people who describe that disparity, regardless of whether they can speak or write, and regardless of how early they learned to do so.  (Meaning regardless of whether they are regarded as HFA, LFA, AS, PDD-NOS, or none of the above.)  Because I have always had expressive higher than receptive.  (Even now receptive is only 80% of expressive even in my best language medium which is written language, and now is the time I am the best at either one in that medium.)  Unlike Rubin, I don't find language comfortable now.  Donna Williams has always described a similar discrepancy between expressive and receptive, although neither her nor my experience of it was as extreme as Sue Rubin's was for as long.  


I'll have to ask this question of you:

I have been known by former teachers to be an excellent writer (written expressive language), but I have consistently baffled them when I explain that it takes me 10-20x longer than the average person to read a book (written receptive language), and that I often have difficulty with reading comprehension (written receptive language.)

My teachers had never met anyone who was so contradictory--at the same time I was among the best writers "they ever had," I had trouble comprehending the subtext/symbolism/meaning of even the simplest books.

Is this probably the same discrepancy you are talking about, here?

Ethel Wrote:

Batman55 Wrote:

Ethel Wrote:
In my introductory post on AFF I said I'd take a cure if there was one, IF I knew it wouldn't have side effects, or damage the things I'm good at.  If there was something that would just remove the need to stim, for instance, or fix the social cues business, I'd take it in a moment.  

There's a big difference between wanting a cure for oneself and wanting to cure everyone on the spectrum, and remove autism from the gene pool totally.  And there's a big difference between not wanting a cure for yourself, and denying a cure to those who do want it.  Sorry, I'm rambling.  I hope this is making sense.


How dare you say you want a cure, in my presence?  No cure!!


And what makes my personal decisions in relation to my own health anyone else's business?

If you don't want a cure, then YOU don't want a cure.  And I support your right to make that decision.  That doesn't give you the right to shout over the top of people who think differently.

What does "cure" mean, anyway?  JUST fiddling around with genes?    Why can't "cure" mean something like a headband with some electrodes on it that I can wear at night to normalise my more erratic brain waves?


I was being sarcastic... sheesh!

Joker Wrote:
Ethel; It's kind of common. It causes quite a bit of heatedness in debates, the question of who wants a cure, and who doesn't want a cure. Generally, those who do want a cure are ostracized, discredited, harassed, or other things which aren't enjoyable. Especially Aspies and others on the spectrum. I myself steer clear of the question, sort of, as my stances are very unpopular with some of the more, uh, enthusiatic Aspies.


I'd say to keep your stances under the table, Joker, because you know I won't be cutting you or anyone else any slack on this topic.  AFF is not supportive of a cure, and there's no other way to say it.  I imagine WP and other sites might be, however.  Those are the places to go if you want to bring up a science-fiction concept and keep your fingers crossed.

Bella Wrote:

Batman55 Wrote:

Ethel Wrote:

Batman55 Wrote:
How dare you say you want a cure, in my presence?  No cure!!

If you don't want a cure, then YOU don't want a cure.  And I support your right to make that decision.  That doesn't give you the right to shout over the top of people who think differently.


I was being sarcastic... sheesh!


Just a piece of advice Batman - if you're going to use sarcasm on the internet, you need to put a smiley face afterwards and just really make it obvious that it is sarcasm.  Otherwise don't be surprised if you hurt people's feelings and they take it literally.


You're right and how about I amend my last response to Joker a little bit:

I was being "half sarcastic" in my last response to you Joker, as in, I feel very passionate about the "anti-cure" sentiment but at the same time you know me not to be a "rough enforcer" as the language used might indicate.  Usually when my response seems exaggerated, there's a touch of sarcasm in it.

I'll have to work on using smiley faces from now on.

anbuend Wrote:
Possibly.  In addition to that though, when I talked about my receptive written vocabulary being 80% of my expressive, I was talking about just the comprehension of individual words.  Which means I use more words than I understand, which is a byproduct of learning words by the sort of patterns they make with other words, rather than by their individual meaning, and also a byproduct of being made to learn to say words before I knew what they meant.


RE: the bolded print:  I do the same exact thing.  I often use words I do not fully understand.  In that same vein, I don't understand what you mean by "learning words by the sort of patterns they make with other words."  Could you explain that in another way?

Ethel Wrote:
From the front page of this very site:

Quote:
We know that autism is not a disease, and we oppose any attempts to "cure" someone of an autism spectrum condition, or any attempts to make them 'normal' against their will.


So let's get one thing straight: if anyone tries to "cure" an Aspie against their will I'll be the first one waving my placard to stop it.  The key words here are against their will.

But if an individual wants a cure, then I don't see what right some random strangers with whom they share nothing but (possibly) a diagnosis, have to get involved.

And if saying that makes me unpopular in Aspie circles, great.  If the Aspie community automatically hates someone for daring to think through these decisions for themselves rather than toeing the party line, I don't want to be part of it anyway.


Nobody has to get involved.  Apart from my personal words of distaste on the concept, the only thing I said was that AFF is not generally supportive of a cure.  I didn't say AFF as a group is against individuals who want a cure--perhaps *I* feel this way a little, but I know such a sentiment is not written on the front page, nor should it be.  You're right Ethel, it is up to the individual.

It looks like this makes about the 5th or 6th time I've been added to someone's Ignore list... I don't think that's a good number.  I feel it may be comparable to the number of times an NBA player is thrown out of a game, for bad behavior.  The more, the worse the consequences.
I'm almost glad that earthmonkey has indirectly pointed out my hypocrisy:  I'm pretty much among the most anti-conformist people I know in real life, I almost never advocate for conformity, and here I am propagating a form of it on AFF.  Truly, I do believe people should be individuals and think for themselves.

So how can I challenge the idea of a cure--a hot-button topic for me--without making it seem that those who go against the grain, should not express themselves?  This is a tough one.
It is a trap that is hard not to fall into. Conformity helps us to feel a sense a belonging - it allows us to feel part of group. From your posts I pick up that you are a strong respectful individualist.
I would be curious to see your DNA profile from that other thread.
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