Aspies For Freedom

I don't think most people here disagree with aid for comorbids that  might be present (such as needing speech therepy) or occupational training, etc.  The line tends to be drawn where it is suggested they need to be "cured" of what/who they are.  Consider that a homosexual might desire legal assistance in making sure his life partner will be able to sign documents during medical emergencies, as a spouse normally could... but not wish to be recieve aid in "curing" his homosexuality.

That said, it is also sometimes true that one aspect of our personality is a preference for doing things on our own. It takes a big social effort to seek help from "others" and interact with them. It doesn't feel as good as accomplishing thigs for oneself.  

When my father was terminally ill, I was caring for him in our home. Eventually I needed to engage a nurse to bathe him a couple times a week.  But then the veterens network sent an army of "care workers" that did nothing but bug me for appointments to troop through my home and interview dad. They could not understand why this upset me. It upset me (and the dog)  to have strangers intrude on my home and bring chaos to my routine in an already difficult situation.  I saw no tangible value in their "aid". When I demanded to know why, they'd only say "because it is procedure" or "because it is required".  Okay, so I guess this last paragraph was personal baggage.

There are downsides to autism, but then there are downsides to everthing else. Yes, we have certain features we could do without, but as far as I'm concerned so do NTs. Nobody's perfect.

People who want to cure autism do want to change autistic people- they want to get rid of all aspects if autism- good and bad. They want to change people to fit society, when it's much better to encourage tolerance towrads minority groups.

Very few people on these boards consider autism to be a mental illness.

You've just contadicted yourself there. You said that not all NTs act the same, which is true, you don't. However you seem to have a set image of autistic people. By adulthood, many of us have learned basic social skills, and we may even pass for NT. WE do, however, have to think abut it much more than mot NTs do.

Marla,

It took guts for you to come to this site and challenge us, and I appreciate that, but I think you've got us misunderstood.  We don't automatically just slam anyone who offers services to us.  However, anything that anyone devises [i]will[/u] go under very heavy scrutiny here.  We're vicious critics, and that's the way it should be.  That way, something truly useful will get good remarks, while outright greed-driven and intolerence-driven quackery will get the smashing it deserves.

Aside from calling asperger's an 'illness', your thoughts are correct though misinformed. 'NT' means neurotypical, therefore someone with a diagnosable condition like ADHD or OCD or ASD are NOT included in the terms of neurotypical. So you can only be neurotypical if you do NOT meet the criteria of a condition listed in the DSM-IV.

I personally think that if someone is having a problem that interferes with the way they want to live their lives they should seek therapy. I also think its important for children to receive some of the therapies that are available to them. A lot of the speech and occupational therapies are very useful. However, I do think that the attempt help a child or adult learn how to handle these challenges needs to be balanced CAREFULLY against the effect that therapy will have on the child. Several autistic individuals have had serious blows to their self-esteem because of the very negative implications that therapies can deliver. What I'm speaking of here are therapies that force eye contact and socialization, specifically. That can have very serious implications to an austistic person and can be much more difficult to their future endeavors that not making eye contact and socialization could EVER be.

Also, there have been many reports that have reported that young autistic savants have lost their savant skills upon receiving these therapies. One imparticular I remember was an artistic savant who was very young. By the end of the report she was making better eye contact and had made some progress socially. But she had lost her savant skills, something that had brought her joy.

So yes, those therapies CAN change a lot about the way an autistic person. Since this is a site that celebrates the autistic individual and the many credits and strengthe therein, many here are against many of the more destructive therapies.

Well said, Sarah

BTW do you mean the artistic savant Nadia? the girl who drew the horses? They are truly amazing...

Perhaps if you read the news reports you'll understand a little about what autistics have been through under the label of "cure" or "help".  

At the Judge Rotenberg Center, children are given painful electric shocks which have caused burns, sometimes being repeatedly shocked while restrained to a board, sometimes restrained for hours, denied food, forced to smell amonia, forced to eat "aversives" such as hot sauce as punisments to modify details of how they act.  One girl there recieved 61 punishments on the day of her death. More details here: http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthread.php?tid=625

Attempted "cures" and "therapies" peddled to parents by quacks and zealots have caused permanent maiming or death. For example, last August Dr. Roy E. Kerry was charged with involuntary manslaughter for administering a chemical treatment that state police say killed a 5-year-old autistic boy.

A New York City man collapsed and died after undergoing therapy that included being shackled and forced to listen to noise resembling static.

In Milwaukee, an 8-year-old autistic boy died at a prayer service where church members tried to heal him of spirits was suffocated.

A HOSPITAL botched a needless operation on an autistic five-year-old. Doctors at The Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead had been trying to see if Jack Piper's bowel problems were linked to his autism, his parents claim. The 1998 colonoscopy left his bowel perforated in 12 places. He suffered organ multiple failure and a swollen brain, developed epilepsy and ulcers, and needs 24-hour care.  Court papers claim the surgery was "not clinically justified".

There are other stories.  I hope this helps you understand why people can be less than enthusiastic about "cures" and "therapies" for autism.

^ I think part of the problem is the intrinsic 'we'.  

Lots of people use it, even Joker here states, 'we welcome her in one topic, and suggest she be keel-auled in another."

Its not bitterly ironic.

Its different people. This is a group of people that has a lot of different ideas. So while some people may have welcomed her, some people may have not, such is the case with every member on this board.

There are a lot of different people that are part of AFF. Some of them, like myself, have come across lots of understanding NTs that ask questions and keep an open mind. Sometimes when someone is posting on a forum for and about autistic people, they speak with a specific crowd without realizing that this is a public forum and that there are lots of lurkers. (I've done it more than I'd like to admit) So you could say, 'We hate NTs." and you mean you and two other kids that post here, but people read it as "everyone on AFF hates NTS."  I myself have been accused of hating NTS for asking questions about them in the support forum.

I personally don't really see the AS vs. NT thing as oppressors vs. oppressed most of the time. I think there are some people that are oppressed that need to be stood up for. But I think that the average person is just unknowledgeable about the autistic spectrum and that those that feel drawn to talk about it to others should do so.

i was trying to be helpful, not hostile. It is hard to reflect tone in typing.

Marla, hurting other peoples feelings unintentionally is not exclusive to aspies. Everyone on the planet is capable of doing that.
"these people" -as you put it-get their feelings hurt by others - and intentionally as well.
I am wondering how one would define "learning a bit of what's okay and what's not" ?
If you know your bf doesn't mean to hurt you, then perhaps you could change your response to him-so that he isn't made to feel sad, AND stupid. You could try not to personalize it so much. ?
Just a thought.

Hey Maria that was a much nicer post and it clarified a lot of things. When you write on a board we think you are referring to all on the site so there can be a lot of confusion. That does not mean I agree with al that you have said though. I am sure you mean well and that you are having a hard time at the moment. I think it's good you and your boyfriend are sorting things out together.

When you say about people living at home and living off others, I would give anything to have my own place. It is so expensive to buy a house over here, let alone get a mortgage. I hope to get a house of my own over the next few years, I am still young.

So Maria you would probably classify my sister as one of those sad cases then, the one who cant live and look after herself then, right! Well suppose your right and thats why she will most likely spend the rest of her life in a home.

I just don't know what kind of point you are trying to make, or who you are trying to get to listen to you. Are you trying to help us the only way you know how and if so in what way? I hope I don't sound harsh I don't me too. I am I just want to understand YOU a little more.

Marla, you do sound a bit defensive at the moment. I didn't say that I thought you were 'wrong'-I think it is about having a different point of view.
By the way, I have a son and husband with AS who I interact with so yeah, I have read a few facts and books myself. I teach all kinds of kids. So I get it.
Social skills training is not for everyone. Either is therapy. If it is working for your boyfriend and yourself, then great. It really is a matter of personal choice.

My point about you being sad is that it is not always your boyfriends fault obviously. Or yours. Communicating effectively can be difficult at the best of times for anybody.
Are you asking for advice or help? I am not sure what the point is anymore.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Actually, you made your point quite clearly.  Some of us simply aren't buying it.

Sometimes when a post is large and talks about many things, it is hard for some of us to sort out what the actual question is, especially if it is implied.  

You said   “I haven't seen any fact-based arguments to resist therapy and medical care for apergers syndrom and autism.”  So, I listed some specific cases to supply facts.  You responded “Specific tragic cases that involved people with autism does not interest me at all.”  I guess I’m not clear what your question is.

How about normal income?

In an economy where everything needed for life is for sale (except sunshine and oxygen because they haven't found a way to make you pay for it), yep, you need money for quite a few things
a. food
b. a place to live
c. clothes to wear, to hide nakedness, and depending on where you live, to protect you from extreme weather for at least some part of the year
d. energy bills to keep the place survivably warm in cold weather (or comfortable in hot weather, or survivably cool in hot weather if you are elderly or high risk), energy for cooking and refrigerating/freezing food (without which you would die from eating spoiled food), plus electricity to keep the lights and TV on (not directly essential to life)
e. transportation (in a large metropolitan area you may have public transit or may live close enough to your job, market, medical care, etc., or for most of the world, you may not, and may need another way to get to those things)
f. medical insurance for medical care
g. if there are dependents, someone to watch over them if there is no  one else to work so you can work

and so on

Yes, life cannot be reduced to a single number.  
But the biggest single number that can explain one's quality of life is one's income, because we human beings created our own natural habitat where we interact with money.  Each culture is like a different natural habitat, a different environment with different challenges and dangerous animals, hazards-- it is what I keep telling a friend from Ghana.  

I know it is Blackmail for the Other People to force Us to Change so We can Work or Get Married, but it is Effective Blackmail.
What Alternative Do We Have?

You, Aspie, Do It My Way or the Highway, or No Money No Way
You, GuessWho, Drop the Lead or Be Lonely in Bed