Thank you violet. Learning about other people's experiences is a real eye-opener... and I think to a certain extent many aspies go through a similar situation, I know I have!
A true kudos to you for apologizing, I hate apologizing more than just about anything in the world, especially when it means admitting I was wrong about something.
I don't understand the concept of why guys can be such jerks to their girlfriends or women in general. I'm in the theory of mind that when you are with someone you like/love them for who they are. None of this "commenting on everything they're doing" that seems to be popular now. I'd just let her be herself, and enjoy her company. Why do guys continue to be such jerks?
I don't understand the concept of why guys can be such jerks to their girlfriends or women in general. I'm in the theory of mind that when you are with someone you like/love them for who they are. None of this "commenting on everything they're doing" that seems to be popular now. I'd just let her be herself, and enjoy her company. Why do guys continue to be such jerks?
I guess it's because they are allowed get away with this kind of behaviour and they think it's what's expected of them? It gets back to their upbringing quite often - where they are seen as the favoured ones and their sisters and other female relatives somehow at least a bit inferior to them.
To give an example, (re. Pakrat's post) there are four girls and one boy in my family of origin. So why is it that my brother never had to do a bit of work at home, whereas ALL four girls were expected to help our mother with domestic duties? I believe it is the "little" things like this that set us ALL up, virtually from birth, to internalize these gender disparities.
Violet, I think it was incredibly smart to run this simulation, I am extremely impressed with your pursuit of the topic.
And as Sarah wrote, apologies are hard. But I always want to BE right, not just be perceived as right. The best thing about finding out that I am wrong, is getting to stop being wrong, and start being right, and that is always worth the pain of apology.
And though I appreciate anytime a guy says that guys are jerks, I don't think guys have the market cornered here, they just have this unfortunate power structure backing them up, which is no one person's fault.
Worse is the boyfriend who only likes you because you are pretty and thinks he can change your autistic behaviour. "You were too sheltered." "You need to change." "Stop acting so weird. You embarrass me." "You're only weird because your family made you that way." The verbal abuse starts and sometimes the physical and emotional abuse starts. Still there are the boyfriends that will constantly criticize physical appearances too "You're too fat." "Don't wear those stupid clothes". "You need boob surgery." "You need to whiten your teeth" "Why don't you change your hair".
I hate being a "fixer up project" or a "Fix her up" project. Being alone can sometimes be better than being with someone who is trying to change you or "cure" you.
I've had similar experiences. I had a boyfriend once who constantly tried to make me more socially acceptable - wear the right clothes, get bigger breasts, eat the right way... the list went on. I was even criticized for being too excitable, particularly in restaurants. Obviously excitable behaviour is embarrassing. I just seemed to come across guys who were attracted to me and that led them to want to go out with me and then try to change me to suit what they actually wanted in a partner.
Am I the only one who has no idea what "IMVU" is?
Great ladies. Now that you have had a fun time man-bashing, anything positive about being pretty and feminine, or does any effort automatically set you up for horrible relationships and interactions with men.
I am betting the ability to malign your negative experiences and single out horrible males is going to be overwhelmingly easier than the reverse. I would love to have you prove me wrong though.
I didn't get the idea that they were man-bashing in a general way, just criticising the ones who wanted to turn them into something they weren't. And isn't what this is about? Being allowed to be ourselves? We could start a balancing thread about all the wonderful men out there that really appreciate us for who we are, but our significant others would get either big heads or jealous! 
I understand your sensitivity, so please feel free to woman-bash in the same way - get off your chest all the horrible feelings you've had when someone you have fallen for tried to turn you into the kind of man she wanted.
CJ - you lucky thing! I never felt anything but gawky; even though my other half seems to think I'm pretty, I have never felt that way. And most people I talk to seem to think I'm much younger than I really am. Even the kids at the school where I volunteer asked their teacher "When is that girl coming back?" Good grief, I'm a fifty-year-old granny! Will I never be a grown-up? 
Great ladies. Now that you have had a fun time man-bashing, anything positive about being pretty and feminine, or does any effort automatically set you up for horrible relationships and interactions with men.
I am betting the ability to malign your negative experiences and single out horrible males is going to be overwhelmingly easier than the reverse. I would love to have you prove me wrong though.
I think it is a common thing in relationships for one person to go in trying to change the other into who they actually want. But that of course means women do it too. It's cultural... A lot of people have very specific rules that they want met...
I don't see this thread as men bashing, more as pointing out the need to be yourself and just how common it is for someone to be attracted to another person, yet when they get into a relationship, try to change them. It's frustrating... and I know for me I had low self esteem and really wanted to fit in, but ultimately trying to change yourself for someone just doesn't work. Glad I found someone who accepts me for who I am.
So....."I doubt too many women would admit it is either but society sort of wants us to do these things." I think you may be wrong. I like natural looking ladies. I like women to be feminine but not done up to the nines to impress.
I don't really think this thread is about society wanting women to act or dress or look a certain way, more about particular people expecting that. There are also plenty of cultures that expect it - ie the nightclub culture.
I would not be up to changing a lady nor particularly pleased in her efforts to change me. Of course any relationship demands that both people compromise their lives to "become a part of a couple".
Compromise is different to trying to change someone from who they are to be like someone else. For instance, who does what things around the house is a big compromise, but if I wanted my partner to be better socially, to become Christian, to be a sports freak etc etc... I would be wanting a different person.
So society also expects such standards and mores of men. I just find it difficult to hear no voices to highlight the good in men or the benefits of being women. Maybe perhaps being a woman is a tragedy that women the world over have to endure through their unhappy lives and men are truly blessed beings. I can not justify the concept in my head but perhaps this and other threads I have seen support that stance.
Shame. I hoped for happiness for my daughter in her life. That is all I guess.
I am an individual and I am different from other women. I can only say the benefits of being me... I am not all women and the men I speak of obviously are not all men. Your daughter is also an individual and will grow up with her own desires, which are not women desires, they are hers. You can't make judgement calls on what a person's gender is and generalise... it's all based on individuals.
Rossco = I really think you're missing the point of my last post. I have male friends and I know some really nice men, particularly my husband. I have female friends who are also really nice people. I don't judge my friends on their gender though, but on whether I can relate to them and talk to them.
Basically I think this thread is about unwanted attention - so the posts have been about some of the bad dating experiences of men trying to change women into someone else. Of course I know it happens the other way around too, with women trying to change men.
I think it's basically a sign that you are not with the right person and of course there are plenty of not right people out there.
From college days I did make and have retained friends. Out of similarity, reciprocity, and nearness, what helped me most was reciprocity: I invested a lot of energy in my friends, birthdays, Christmas, I have a good memory about those things
It is not hard to get a member of the opposite sex to treat you as a friend. It is not the same as getting her to commit romantically to you or give you a try. She gets to enjoy conversation with you at the usual social situations in groups. Close friends might even help one another, home remodeling etc.
Still, even for people who have figured out friendship, trying to talk a woman into a deeper relationship is elusive.
Note: People who think sex=sex=sex=sex under all circumstances and contexts, no it does not.
They want sex celebrated in the context of love, respect, and commitment, which builds up, lifts up, and heals.
Sex is a neutral energy that can be used for love and marriage (as intended) or for evil to destroy. It is a hypodermic needle to inject something into a soul, good or bad.
The who, why, and when is very important, and intelligent people will not rush in.
I'm not sure that very many people are really really ugly. Some things that make people ugly are rotten teeth (can be fixed by the dentist, but is expensive), huge moles on the face (can be removed by a dermatologist), hard or sour facial expressions, very out of proportion figures eg. huge bottom but small upper body, sores and lesions. Most of these things can be helped by the medical profession but the trouble arises when the people can't afford it.
Even those of us who "don't play the game" and prefer the natural look get a few of those sneers and rolling eyes eg. from some shop assistants.
That is an expected reaction from people who perceive that you think that "playing their game" is stupid. They perceive that you have rejected them, and they're copping a 'tude. It's not a reaction to the way you look, per se; not an assessment of the the raw material. That's alot different than the "get your eyes off me, you disgustingly ugly creep" sneer.
I'd rather blend in and disappear, but my appearance does not lend itself to that end. In the human zoo, there are two exhibits that draw the biggest crowds: the beauty pageant and the freak show. Frankly, I would avail myself of whatever there was to offer - even cosmetic surgery - if it would enable me to disappear into the crowd of average.
You choose not to "play the game". That is a valid choice, and I respect that. The point is that you could play if you chose to, and would be accepted. I do not have that choice. All things considered, I'd gladly take the sneers and rolled eyes you get: it's not the sneer, it's what it means. Wanna trade places?
It's not the job of shop assistants to be fashion show judges, they're paid to be polite to customers. Just because not all customers are young attractive men doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with proper respect.
