Aspies For Freedom - John Best. A credit to his son.

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:

......And I have never seen anyone here against treatment for severe problems - but, so far, I have failed to find convincing proof that any of the treatments touted have a demonstrable effect on all autistic people. We all want to help our children overcome the hurdles that nature throws in their way - but most of us don't want to change them into someone else.

Ooops, sorry! Spelling. Rolleyes

I have had a thought which may or may not be relevant.

Here is a story.

Let us imagine for a moment a loving mother of one son. Because her own neurological wiring is totally different to that of her child she is incapable of understanding that child's view of his life. This makes her miserable as she cannot empathise with him and she really, really wants to. She is his loving mother, after all, she hates him being bullied at school and she wants him to grow up and have a successful life; career, marriage, fatherhood etc.

She reads all the childcare books and cannot find any relevant material aid her in any of them.

She does the rounds of the specialists.

Then a doctor tells her that she is not at fault - there is something 'wrong' with her son.

So she looks up this 'wrongness' on the internet where she reads about a group of people who are trying to find a way of turning children like hers into the sort of child she thought she would have. One whose thought processes would be like hers, so she could empathise with him and understand him and life would be wonderful again. He would be 'cured' of his wrongness!

However, these people imply that the only reason that they are not succeeding is because adults who say they think like her son are against the 'cure'.

So she finds a forum where adults like her son discuss things, and after a while becomes extremely frustrated at their attitude - why can they not see that they are simply 'wrong'?!

BUT, of course, these days society backs up the son and not the mother. Although ten or more years ago she would have been regarded as a martyr, these days it is perfectly acceptable for the son to be gay.

EvilZakkie Wrote:

wilky Wrote:

Autism, at it's most severe is a living nightmare for the individual child or adult, and advocating against a 'cure' is sheer ignorance and cruelty.

Amy and Gareth,
I sincerely hope that one day you will feel some shame for politicizing what is essentialy a serious debilitating condition, and indoctrinating your own belief system via propaganda and scaremongering vulnerable and troubled young adults and children on the autistic spectrum, who come to AFF for support and friendship from others like themselves.
Could either of you honestly say you have any real experience of living with profound autism?
I think you would benefit John Best's example. His relentless effort and determination to 'cure' his son's autism is commendable and is a credit to him.

Hi Wilky,

I always used to think your posts were insightful, and I even nodded in understanding when you pointed out that John Best actually cared for his son. At the time though, I believed you were promoting the idea of trying to understand that his posts were borne of frustration - not that you were actually pro-cure.

This maybe hard for others to hear, as you've been around for a long while, and as many have pointed out, your posts seem "nice" and "friendly", and many people have built up a friendship with you over time.

But underneath all that, you obviously have no real respect for us, and have no interest in the basic human right to exist.

Many people have asked you to explain, or have sought to defend you as a "nice lady". I urge these people to understand that the ideas she is supporting are responsible for the negative way society treats you, and will effect your children, their children, and even the fate of Autistic people as a whole.

In other words, Wilky, get lost. You are not welcome here.

I think as a parent of an autistic child, you watch them struggle too often, and you wish their lives could be easier. You see things from your own perspective of the world and you want your children to be able to fit and cope into your 'view' of the world.
People with aspergers are individuals, they cope within their own interpretation of the world, if the world lets them. Even someone with quite profound autism, has their own way of being in the world. As a child with autism grows - ideally they should have a place in society, where they are accepted and where they can live fillfulling lives.

I think as parents (with our viewpoints on how things are) we want the best for our children - deemed according to what we consider is best. Whereas adults on the spectrum want to be able to be accepted and fit into the world for the individuals they are. To talk about needing treatment or needing a cure - must come across as deeply offensive to someone with an autism condition. The suggestion that there needs to be a cure - or some sort of treatment must make people with autism feel devalued and not worth the space they occupy on the planet.
I think sometimes parents fail to acknowledge the potential hurt that can be caused when people talk about needing a cure or a treatment for autism. My son has aspergers - he is autistic - but he is who he is, he doesn't need a cure or treatment, he just needs to find ways to help him to cope and live happily in his life - same as everyone else. Perhaps a quite a bit harder for him, because he doen't fit the norm. But it is not my son who needs to change - it is attitudes relating to intolerance and lack of acceptance from people within society.
Wilky - I don't really know you - but my impression is that you are a good person - I wouldn't want you to feel you have to debate your position on the forum if you don't want to - but I would like to hear your thoughts on why you feel the way you do.
I don't know that telling someone to get lost will help anything - but I do understand that people feelings have been hurt by the original post.

EvilZakkie Wrote:

Lucie1 Wrote:

I don't know that telling someone to get lost will help anything - but I do understand that people feelings have been hurt by the original post.

Negative statements often have a place in these sorts of arguments - In that it ensures that once bigotry gets to a certain stage, it is no longer tolerated, and the person is no longer welcome - and also ensures that those reading along know that these statements are not tolerated.

By outing herself as pro-cure, Wilky has ensured that she has no further place here, and nothing to offer. In fact, she's stated several times that this was her intention.

If you're interested in finding out more about the curebie mindset, there's plenty of parent blogs complaining about autism that you can gain insight from - but this place is supposed to be a haven from all that.

I know that you like being a peacekeeper. Just remember that sometimes keeping the peace means keeping the bad guys out.

oh - that wasn't meant to happen. Oh well.
My thoughts only --- I respect you heaps and heaps zacchie - and I like you lots but I don't like the idea of good guys and bad guys. I think people are people - they are driven by different motives. If we can take time to explain to each other - what drives us and why we think the way we do, maybe we can promote our viewpoint and promote understanding for our viewpoint. Maybe even find some common ground - I would still like to know why Wilkie feels the way she does. Why does she think a focus on cure is good? Has she thought about the reality of this option and what it would entail? Or is she so ground into trying to do what she thinks is right for her child in helping him? to fit into the world - perhaps she doesn't realise that until she learns real acceptance for the child - she will always be fighting a battle that can't be won. I don't know the reasons - just hypothesising. Pushing her away is not promoting knowledge or understanding, it's responding to hurt.

Wilky - I hope I wasn't too presumptious with my hypothesising.

Joker Wrote:

You are cruel, cruel people. It sickens me that this is what AFF has come to; Crucifying an Aspie for not conforming to the group's ideals. Have you no shame? Read what you have wrote, and feel it then! You callously taunt and mock, and say vile, disgusting things and justify them with hatred.

I for one do not think I'm a neurobiological disorder. I am a person, a human being! I am not a disorder, I am a person! Is it fraud to be true to yourself? Is it a lie to want to be known not for a disorder, but for who you are as a person? I love a slow song, a sombre poem, a gorgeous moment in the dead of winter where the sky glistens with stars and the snow looks likes thousands of tiny crystals. I do love those thing, with all of my heart, me; not Aspergers.

You cannot see but black and white, and refuse to see anything more. If Wilky is not for you, then she is against you? Folly! By your own hatreds and lack of acceptance, you drive out those you once called brother and sister. By your own inability to be considerate to all Aspies, not just the ones you agree with, you make a haven into a hell. How many Aspies have you lost? How many have you driven out? What is Wilky railing against?
People come to AFF for support, for friendship, for community!
What is going on? AFF is not a haven, not anymore. It's a political thing, cold and uncaring. The members must follow the party line, or be cut loose.

When did we become a diosorder, and not a community? When did we follow out of necessity, rather than choice? When did we become disorders, and not people? Aspies have become more proud of their Aspergers than of themselves. We fear being cast out of our community, our friends, those we cherish and hold dear, because of political machinations.

We are people. We have families, pets, friends, possessions, toys, games, songs, goals, dreams, lives... We like to share a laugh or a joke, a song or a tear, our experiences and our stories. I love a good snowfall, another Aspie I know loves to create songs, and there's a Moderator here who's screen-name is that they like kittens. Are we a disorder, that we will no longer be without it? Or are we people, who make our own choices, walk our own paths, live our own lives? I am a person. I want to be known not for Aspergers, but for being who I am. I am not a disorder, but a person.

I am a brother. I am a friend. I am another person who is just like you.
We are people, not disorders.

I'm not a disorder either. Nor are my grandparents, parents, siblings, children and grandchildren. We are all individuals with different challenges in our lives. But saying that our autism is a disorder rather than a difference insults us - just as it would insult a gay person to be told that their homosexuality is a disorder. Yes, because of our autism we are faced with prejudice from non-autistic people; but, just like racism and sexism it is the prejudice that should be cured, not us!

Wilky did not have to say anything, and she could have said what she did without having a go at Amy and Gareth - without whom this forum would not exist.

I have a problem with someone wading in with a thread designed to insult - and it is not at all surprising that others feel the same way.

Simen! (with 10 posts) and Simon ( with 338 posts) - I am confused, are you the same person?
If so, why do you have two accounts?

oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tricky.

I did read your signature line evil - I couldn't make sense of it - thanks for explaining. What a good idea! Shy

Too funny. Smile

I tend to think chasing a cure is chasing false hope, but maybe when you are feeling hopeless, false hope is better than no hope at all.

Why should it have ended the thread???

oh - -- good enough reason as any Big Grin

Wilkie's words were quite strident, but that's okay as long as no-one holds grudges. It is topic that stirs up deep emotions / feelings, it's not always easy to remain calm. Beliefs should be challenged and talked about - there are always pressures to conform - I like to see ideas challenged, it's an open forum.

I had tinnitus before I stopped drinking milk and eating wheat ichtms - it made me miserable.

Had Wilkie being here for years?

anyway - besides that - Aspies for freedom should include "freedom of expression".
I learnt from the follow up to Wilkie's lead in post. I am sure other people did as well.

I don't how Wilkie was feeling or what she should have known or why she felt the need to post such a post - but I know when I get stressed and upset my words can come out a lot stronger and meaner than I intend. Maybe Wilkie didn't go on to give further insight because of a feeling of fear, a fear of being shouted down and unable to speak freely. Just hypothesising again, I don't know the reasons.
People can come to hate being different, I know for a long time my son hated being different, he hated hearing the word aspergers - not quite sure how he feels now. Maybe he has come to learn to like himself better.
But if people can't say what they feel about having aspergers on this site - it kind of goes against the grain of a place titled Aspies for freedom. Some people with AS may hate having AS and cure might seem like a good option. People don't learn when they feel shut down by feelings of fear or by a need to conform. If people can really say how they feel, people like you zacchie can help them to understand better and maybe feel better about themselves.

Just one little niggly thing, I don't like being the peacemaker zacchie.
kind regards to you and Bella

Gareth Wrote:

"I am like the ancient persian sword" ?

Well, i'm tempted to say "if the sword is ancient, it must be not very bright" but I won't.

Gareth!! Bad boy! Wink

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