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I've kind of had an epiphany over the last month... that the math we currently use is hopelessly limited by the notation we are using.

I was inspired by reading about Mr Buckminster fuller, (a quote from PBS article)

Quote:
Synergetics is Fuller's name for the geometry he advanced based on the patterns of energy that he saw in nature.

For him, geometry was a laboratory science with the touch and feel of physical models--not rules out of a textbook. He started with models of the closest packing of spheres. From that basic starting point he derived triangles as the most economical relationship between events.


He did not start with Euclid's lines in the sand or Descartes' cubes and square XYZ-coordinates. Fuller felt that the old classic approaches did not describe the way nature actually behaves. For instance, Euclid's lines were thought to go off to infinity. Fuller says lines are vectors of energy and he rejected the notion that anything physical could be extended indefinitely.

Descartes cubes are unstable forms. For Fuller, the world is built of stable, finite structures. His triangular coordination depends on tetrahedral models. (A tetrahedron is a pyramid with a triangular base.) Four spheres close pack into a stable tetrahedron: good. Eight spheres stack into an unstable cube: bad. His geometry hinges on the tetrahedron, the simplest structural system within insideness and outsideness: he advances it as the most economical way to measure space and to account all physical (and metaphysical!) experience.

This is what he calls synergetics: an empirical mathematical system in which geometry and number mesh without fractions. It gains its validity not from classic abstractions but from the results of individual physical experience. His two-volume work "Synergetics" has the subtitle: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking.

Oops hit reply by accident...

Anyhow...

I was thinking about taking Mr fullers ideas and expanding on them, I've had some really fucking mind blowing ideas lately that seem to "work" when I apply them, but I'm using my own intuitive geometric reasoning that would look like ignorance to anyone not acquainted to how I'm thinking about geometry, numbers, the universe and time.

I'm thinking about re-writing euclids elements with my own expanded definitions and incorporating, computer science, and boolean concepts and merging ideas and properties from physics/computer science with geometry.

I had this idea while looking at 3D computer graphics, and wondering what "time was" in our real universe, but then started to analyze "discrete time" in a simulation like a 3D game like supreme commander (real time strategy game).

It seems that the virtual world and the real world may have transposable elements, i.e. virtual characteristics of time in a game, may in fact apply to the real world at some level (in some way not yet discovered).

It's pooling in my mind, but I'd need to create a number system which is animated and works in 3D, not just the simple one dimensional, or cartesion co-ordinate systems...

I'd be doing fully 3D multi-vector geometric systems....

Incorporating color (frequency)
Energy-like properties and logic characteristics to geometric shapes, such as points, lines, solids, etc.

The only problem is, it really has to be made and used in 3D, like you were inside a video game for it to really show it's usefulness.

It has been terribly useful to me, and I've used these new  ideas to great effect in understanding navigation, but it's all trapped in my visual metaphors (visual comparitive language).

All my ideas are trapped in pictures and animations, not in 1, 2 ,3 of script symbolic mathematical alphabets.

I think there is number-shape equivalence law I've "discovered" (or re-discovered, if someone has already figured it out).

That any number can be represented by a shape and vice versa, therefore, why not make a mathematical system consisting of number-shapes?  Shapes that symbols for numbers... and you can use the whole visual spectrum of stuff to do crazy math. Smile
So, for each number its shape? Why should it ve easier? I mean, it makes infinitely many shapes. We recognize the number easily - when we se,, for example, 23571347, we can get an idea what it is. But how do you get the same idea about the shape representing this number? Some laws need to be discovered. Translating all arithmetics into the language of geometry would get more time and space than doing that arithmetics...

Can you show how you number-shape-equivalence looks like?

alexmagnus Wrote:
So, for each number its shape? Why should it ve easier? I mean, it makes infinitely many shapes. We recognize the number easily - when we se,, for example, 23571347, we can get an idea what it is. But how do you get the same idea about the shape representing this number? Some laws need to be discovered. Translating all arithmetics into the language of geometry would get more time and space than doing that arithmetics...

Can you show how you number-shape-equivalence looks like?


It will take some time to explain because I will need diagrams to show the differences in notation and what we miss when we use our current notation (1, 2, 3, 4) etc.

I think geometry is in fact precursor kind of mathematical language to the symbolic math alphabet we use (1,2,3...).

Give me some time and I'll do a write up and post it back in the forum here.

MadKangaroo Wrote:
So effectively what you are doing is going:
1 = a blob
2 = another kind of blob
3 = mr blobby
and so on...
I really dont see the point, how does that help maths at all?


That's because you're not seeing math for what it is, and how it was formed... i.e. by looking at nature and needing to devise a abstract system to describe and measure shapes.

Check out wikipedia (just stick in "math") and look at the history of mathematics and the definition of math, it is the "science of patterns", but the geometric patterns (of light/energy) came first before we used symbols to describe them.

For you curiousity, google the mayan numeral system "Mayan numerals", I will post some interesting stuff but it will take some time to put together and explain, and you can't see it without pictures and diagrams.

SoulSick Wrote:
I think geometry is in fact precursor kind of mathematical language to the symbolic math alphabet we use (1,2,3...).


I see no evidence for this claim. People contemplated the natural numbers long before geometry, so there is historical evidence that arithmetic by numbers was invented before geometry.

Further, I see absolutely no reason at all to suppose that geometry logically precedes numbers -- quite the opposite.

Further yet, I see no reason why a clunky formalism based on geometry would be at all helpful.

Simen Wrote:

SoulSick Wrote:
I think geometry is in fact precursor kind of mathematical language to the symbolic math alphabet we use (1,2,3...).


I see no evidence for this claim. People contemplated the natural numbers long before geometry, so there is historical evidence that arithmetic by numbers was invented before geometry.

Further, I see absolutely no reason at all to suppose that geometry logically precedes numbers -- quite the opposite.

Further yet, I see no reason why a clunky formalism based on geometry would be at all helpful.


You're not thinking like a naturalist, if nature is all connected all of the time, and your senses have to develop to te point where you can make intelligable and DISTINCT data-pictures of the environment you exist in, then it followsthat:  When you look at / sense the world with your seneses you are receving DATA about the world the geometry is already in the pictures you see... Data has a geometry, you wouldn't know this of course unless you understand boolean algebra and computer science

Any data you detect with your senses is necessarily geometric whether you are aware of it or not.

Simen Wrote:
I took a look at the synergetics stuff and by the looks of it, it's pure crackpottery (why do so many people on here think that far-fetched nonsense is a great, illuminating discovery?).


Ahh yes... the ENLIGHTENMENET fallacy - the only way  to truth is through a "sectarian" doctrine of a rigid method of science - which no one understands or can even articulate.  Go read some Paul feyerabend.  Scientific discoveries are not the domain of rigid  minded acadecians alone, Einstein was a fucking patent clerk btw and well outside the trenches of academic rigidity.

Certain aspects of enlightenmenet thinking were such a crock of bullshit... because it didn't understand SCIENTIFICALLY that there are other ways of thinking can have complex logic and rationality embedded in it, because people are just too lower-cognitive unless you hold their hand and explain it to them step-by-step, their ego's get in the way of true reason and rationality.

I see things in visual metaphors, or highly complicated geometric pictures, that have extreme amounts of sophisticated data in them that I don't fully understand and have to decode because it's so abstract (i.e. a picture is worth 1000 words).

Some of the stuff I've been doing is very advanced but you can't understand it unless you can read pictographic languages and have a good grasp of electronics, computer science and boolean logic, and all of what I am doing is from an internal personalized objective non-transferable (i.e. because I have to write down the definitions, rules, etc) understanding of a new matehamtical geometric system I am working on, which in fact WORKS, I've used principles from it and they *work*, so when you consider whether or not something is good or bad you have to consider the RESULTS.

Next, in the era of the computer, you can now VIRTUALIZE and play with different systems in an imaginary space, and try out new ideas and concepts to see if they are workable.

Many of histories brightest people journeyed alone... Look at Mr Fuller.  I don't necessarily agree with everything he wrote, but he had some neat ideas.  Also, the main problem right now iss because you don't understand it, and buckminster didn't do a very good job explaining his ideas, he didn't go be like Euclid and think out the logic of his system, he mish-mashed it together, even I can see the errors in hi work.  He had a fairly high IQ and was the president of mensa, but it seemed he never defined his terms, which left everyone going "WTF?".

Next of course is Bram Cohen, author of bit-torrent, an aspie... he did most of the work on his own and forever changed the fucking internet because he knew what he was talking about and put up to make the other people shut-up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bram_Cohen

Here's a riddle... to show you that I know what I'm doing...

In boolean logic, what numbers do you use to represent true and false? and why?

Make your answer, and then I will make you shit your pants with a neat discovery I made, using cross disciplinary integration from other fields.

EvilZakkie Wrote:
I think this debate will have no end, as it is debating a system we haven't yet seen.

I'm curious about your number-shape theory of mathematics, but I can also understand Simens point of view, as the words "number-shape mathematical system" don't actually sound groundbreaking yet. It very well may be, but we'll have to see the system to debate the system.

In other words, lets put the debate on hold until we have something to debate. That way the two of you can raise actual points instead of trying to discredit the other on the basis of vague notions.


Exactly.  Although he was the one who had an axe to grind, so I had to jump in... since he's working from total ignorance.

Here is one example of people creating new systems:

http://www.symmetryperfect.com/

MadKangaroo Wrote:

SoulSick Wrote:

MadKangaroo Wrote:
So effectively what you are doing is going:
1 = a blob
2 = another kind of blob
3 = mr blobby
and so on...
I really dont see the point, how does that help maths at all?


That's because you're not seeing math for what it is, and how it was formed... i.e. by looking at nature and needing to devise a abstract system to describe and measure shapes.

Check out wikipedia (just stick in "math") and look at the history of mathematics and the definition of math, it is the "science of patterns", but the geometric patterns (of light/energy) came first before we used symbols to describe them.

For you curiousity, google the mayan numeral system "Mayan numerals", I will post some interesting stuff but it will take some time to put together and explain, and you can't see it without pictures and diagrams.


We can do it very easily in the current system of mathematics with vector equations that can draw and measure shapes, then apply calculus. I dont see how changing the simple over to make them look prettier is going revolutionise maths, asides setting back research as people get used to yet another system of counting. If you can explicitly show me the system and demonstrate how its better, then I might be able to see what you are getting at, but at the moment I really cant see the point.


Actually, George boole's books on boolean logic had no practical application for hundreds of years, then claude shannon took a philosophy class, and boom the computer was invented because of the work George boole did on boolean algebra.  So your point is quite irrelevant given the history of mathematics that were once irrelevant but then later found significantapplication.

Simen! Wrote:
Boolean logic simplifies computers. Your idea seems to only make doing what we can already do more complex.


Actually, there are many branches of math that were complicated from the beginning, so this statement is pointless.

Simen Wrote:
Is there any advantage whatsoever to your new idea?


That's what I'm trying to work out, I don't have the whole story yet, I just thought it was interesting.  Part of my idea works very well in in certain areas, I can't say it's globally useful because I have to work out all of the details.  When the people who invented calculus invented it, it wasn't exactly a simple thing.  To say calculus isn't useful, is to say the whole of modern technology it is based on is not useful.

So I can't say it has *universal* applicability, but for certain things I do it works...

MadKangaroo Wrote:
There is no mathematical advantage or revolution at all in what you are suggesting, fundementally you are not actually making anything now. Booles work was actually a new area, you are merely trying to redesign the alphabet we use, as opposed to the methods. Seriously, find something new to spend your time on.


That is an incoherent statement, was there no mathematical advantage to non-euclidean geometry?  Was there no mathematical advantage to calculus?  Do you even know the history of mathematics?  The history of mathematics is a series of ever increasing systems of thought

It is ALL related to boole by the way, something he was looking at but didn't complete.

Simen Wrote:

SoulSick Wrote:
That is an incoherent statement

No, it's not. An incoherent statement would be one that is contradictory or cognitively meaningless. The statement contains no logical contradiction and is meaningful.

Quote:
Was there no mathematical advantage to non-euclidean geometry?  Was there no mathematical advantage to calculus?  Do you even know the history of mathematics?  The history of mathematics is a series of ever increasing systems of thought


I agree that MadKangaroo can't really know since you've yet to reveal your system, but from what you'be given us, I see no reason to suppose that your idea is in any way advantagous.


That's amazing that you can judge something that you don't even know about, I wish I had that kind of power.

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