Aspies For Freedom - Do you think that aspies should be in mainstream?

I am asking because I personally believe that once you get to secondary school the social side of education takes over, ad autistic teens, as well as those with things lke socil phobia, anxiety, very low self-esteem and selective muteness do not do well at all. They do not make friends easily and are likely to be intimidated and/or bullied. They are also likely to have lower confidence, or feel 'broken' or 'freakish.'

I think it might be a good idea to have either special classes in mainstream secondary schools or separate secondary schools altogether for these kids. If they were all in together they would be better understood by both teachers and hopefully peers, and I find that kids who don't fit in become more confident socially when with people who have the same problems. As a result they may be able to have friends and go on dates like other people their age. This will raise tehri personal confidence.

I am writing because I think this issue is something I feel strongly about and may take on in a petition or campaign at some point (not now as I am 14, and therefore in no real position to lobby) but obviously I will never consider taking this up if nobody agrees, so I wondered what you thought.

I am UK based, if it's relevant. Probably not, but, hey...

I think it depends on the school. Since my dad was in the military I attended many different schools in many different places. On the whole I felt most comfortable in smaller schools.

I feel mainstream is the best option. Quitting it strikes me too much as runnning away from ones problems, asides I havent turned out too bad at all from the experience.

MadKangaroo Wrote:

I feel mainstream is the best option. Quitting it strikes me too much as runnning away from ones problems, asides I havent turned out too bad at all from the experience.

Kangaroo, I totally agree!��I would tell myself.. "Figure it out!��Figure it out!.. take a pad and pencil and figure it out!��In the hard days the library was my friend.. today people have the internet !��Goodness HOW HARD IS IT???

erkolos Wrote:

I think Yetti might have seen a different school than young aspies see today.

Today's school (at least here in Norway) has begun with focus on groupwork and projects with a wide array of possibilities, which I never really manage and it really drains my self-esteem each time. I wish school was more straight-forward as it probably was when Yetti went to school.

I don't know how it is to go to school with other autistics, but I can imagine that it could be a more safe environment to learn social skills for many - without having to get overly negative reactions whenever you try to participate in a conversation.

That's my point exactly.

I have been at secondary school for two and a bit years now and have not made any proper friends. I also go to a youth group for kids with AS and autism, as well as shy kids and kids who have been bullied. I only go once a week, and that's not every week, but I can safely say I have made more social prigress there than I have at school.
They would learn social skills from each other in a more tolerant setting.

It wuldn't be running away, it would be stopping kids who don't fit into mainstream growing up feeling useless, broken or even traumatised by isolation and bullying.

Also subjects like drama can be adapted so that there isn't so much group work or rather, none of this 'choose a partner' business. I enjoy drama but didnt take it as an option because I always have to be allocated to a grou and never get a chance to really go for it.

iostream Wrote:

I consider mainstream individuality-killing to the point where many people no matter aspie or NT shouldn't be there for their own good...

That's a point actually.

Maybe an overhaul would be better.

Planet*Louise Wrote:

I am asking because I personally believe that once you get to secondary school the social side of education takes over, ad autistic teens, as well as those with things lke socil phobia, anxiety, very low self-esteem and selective muteness do not do well at all. They do not make friends easily and are likely to be intimidated and/or bullied. They are also likely to have lower confidence, or feel 'broken' or 'freakish.'

I think it might be a good idea to have either special classes in mainstream secondary schools or separate secondary schools altogether for these kids. If they were all in together they would be better understood by both teachers and hopefully peers, and I find that kids who don't fit in become more confident socially when with people who have the same problems. As a result they may be able to have friends and go on dates like other people their age. This will raise tehri personal confidence.

I am writing because I think this issue is something I feel strongly about and may take on in a petition or campaign at some point (not now as I am 14, and therefore in no real position to lobby) but obviously I will never consider taking this up if nobody agrees, so I wondered what you thought.��

I am UK based, if it's relevant. Probably not, but, hey...

im in the uk and as a lot of people have said it depends on the aspie because some of my mainstream schools have been extremely intolerant but my other schools (2) have been very understanding the one im in now because of their understanding i have been able to go back into lessons.

garmonbozia Wrote:

I'm in favor of aspies going to separate schools, preferably ones run by aspies (successful aspies as role models).��That's just part of my belief that most schools are attempts at a one-size-fits-all education that is a failure for not only aspies but all kinds of people, and that there needs to be a variety of schools anyway, for different kinds of kids.��(The thugs who do most of the violent-type bullying need to be off in their own schools, too... reform schools.)

The trials and tribulations of an aspie childhood are going to happen no matter what you do.��It's better if it's treated as nobody's business but the aspies, and their teachers and parents, not happening under the sneering faces of NT children who are not yet mature enough to respect other people even with their failings.��If all your classmates are doing goofy stuff, too, then nobody's got room to talk about you doing goofy stuff.��

Even if you make tremendous social progress, the NTs still have knowledge of how you were beforehand.��That knowledge is a weapon, and they can pull that card if it suits them to knock you back down.��(e.g. something like "Oh shut up.��I remember back in the fourth grade when Mrs. Malade fell and broke her hip in class and you kept on talking about airplanes." being dredged up in the junior year of high school, in front of a girl you're trying to impress)��It's just better if they don't know you at all until later when everybody's a bit more mature.

Let the aspie kids interact with the NT kids later, after they've had time to train and prepare for social interactions that don't come natural to them.��Too soon, when you're still in unmitigated form, will do far more damage than good.

The way I see it, these kids graduating and going into a mixed adult society should be no more awkward than immigrants entering a new country and having to learn its ways.��(That's something I'll refer to as "immigrant model" in future discussions.)

Even in an all-aspie school, the kids will still get to interact with NT kids in other ways outside the school (e.g. family gatherings, scouting, dojos, little league, etc.), so it's not total isolation from the NT world.

Also, I don't like the idea of anything being called "therapy" if it's something that 99% of the aspies need anyway and can be incorporated as a normal part of the curriculum (e.g. a class about social skills... worth academic credit for social studies).

as good idea that is not all aspies would like to go to a all aspie school some like to interact with NT's but i do know of one school that all its pupils have aspergers

garmonbozia Wrote:

Well, for my idea to work, you'd have to fight off any stigma associated with AS, something most here are trying to do anyway.��It really shouldn't be any more humiliating than going to a small private school instead of the local "it's free but you get what you pay for" public school.

I contribute to this discussion from the standpoint of having once been the pawn in a game of "special or mainstream" between the school board and my parents.��There was no aspie category back then.

While they were fighting that battle, I had the priviledge of going to class with some unstable and often violent kids, many of whom no doubt either dead or rotting in prison by now.��On a typical school day in the sixth grade, that was my math class.��I'd go from gifted language arts to that horrible class, then from there to advanced Reading, and then after lunch it was gifted social studies and then gifted science.��I've now got calculus and a master's degree under my belt, but them deciding I should have at least one class like that and that it should be my math class, put me behind schedule in math.

and you are right because a lot of bullying goes on to anyone who is different at the mo but not all bullying victims are ND's and some aspies and etc haven't been bullyed. but with this seperation thing couldn't it make things worse?

garmonbozia Wrote:

There's more to this than just bullying.��You're right, it's not as simple as "Be in one category, get eaten.��Be in another, eat."��Besides, aspies are just as likely to bully each other, probably more so when on a level playing field without a common threat.��I did say I'm not suggesting total separation, just enough time away from all the crap so one can concentrate on studies and be a more effective learner.

I can see how it might be a problem if it's a boarding school, where you live there 24 hours a day with hardly an NT in sight.��But if it's a commuter school, where you go home every afternoon, then that should be sufficient time to practice your mixed social interactions.

how about a seperate unit were aspies can go to when they are feeling stressed out or do lessons in?

garmonbozia Wrote:

I read an article last year that mentioned a public school that does have an aspie homeroom, for just that purpose.��Problem is, if you're stressed out and have to go to that room, you still have to make your way from wherever you are, through the hallways (fluorescent-lit, I presume) past god-knows-what to get there.��I can imagine running into a gang of bullies skipping class while on that walk.��(Just what you'd need.��/sarcasm��Remember, you're already not feeling too good if you're making that trip.)��Whenever you're ready to leave the safe room, you'll probably find that news of whatever incident sent you there is making its way around the school.��Or, perhaps a teacher who decides to be a jerk and not let you go there, thus letting you just have a meltdown in class in front of all the other kids.��I guess that's better than nothing, but still I can imagine endless bad possibilities with that.��It would be interesting to read what rules are in place to prevent over-utilization or under-utilization of the room.

If I'd have had something like that at my disposal (back in the 1980's when I was a kid), I would have probably kept skipping PE until somebody stopped me.

a unit is in my school and i can tell you it helps a HELL of a lot! about the bullies things they don't dare to go near you because you usually have a LSA with you.

flardox Wrote:

It wouldn't be compulsory for aspies- it would just be there as an option.

Planet*Louise Wrote:

flardox Wrote:

It wouldn't be compulsory for aspies- it would just be there as an option.

oh ok then sorry it seemed a bit like it being compulsory im not saying that it is a bad idea though personally i think it is a very good idea but to me it seemed like aspies go to certain schools and NT's to certain schools but i just read it wrong! Big Grin

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oh ok then sorry it seemed a bit like it being compulsory im not saying that it is a bad idea though personally i think it is a very good idea but to me it seemed like aspies go to certain schools and NT's to certain schools but i just read it wrong! Big Grin

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It wouldn't even be a direct NT/aspie split. The schools I am considering would also be open to very shy kids, kids with social phobia, kids who have poor social skills as they have maybe been isolated for ages, selective mutes, kids who have very low self esteem due to bullying or abuse...

Baiscally kids who would not fit socially into a mainstream school.

Someone mentioned the fact that 98% of aspies rae unemployed. First are you sure it's that high? I'm not saying I don't believe you, it just seems strange that only 2% of aspies have a job. I'm wondering if this is partly down to lack of confidence on the aspie's part? If they were in a school where they could learn social skills non-judgementally and by trial and error then maybe they could a) function better in an NT environment, B) feel better within themselves?

Somebody also mentioned bullying. I did not for one second say there wouldn't be bullying. There will be. You do not, unfortunately get schools without it. Only difference is, it would be on a level playing field, there would be an effective anti bullying policy in place (these need to be improved in most schools full stop, actually) and the chance of the victim suffering the isolation they may have had in mainstream is reduced.

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You're making sweeping generalisations there. There may be other Aspies who don't have social phobia (they may just feel awkward and out of place and as though they don't fit in or belong) and not all Aspies have selective muteness.

I was talking about people with Social Phobia, Anxiety and selctive mutism separately from aspies. I was making the point that it's not only aspies who suffer in mainstream- anyone who can't make friends easily does. Smile

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Tbh, Louise, I don't think what you're arguing for solves the root of the problem, you simply think it would remove the symptoms -- and personally speaking I don't believe it would even do that.

The trouble is it would take ages to remove the root causes- you would need intense anti-bullying propaganda that, at the moment, schools just aren't prepared to dole out. A few aspies in a school isn't going to change the school's ideas about asperegrs- it will just put the aspie in a position where he or she is likely to be victimised, and who then may end up with low confidence, bullied and obsessed ith fitting in- which never has pretty consequences.

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I don't believe that segregation or 'special' schooling would resolve the problems. And in most cases, the problems aren't educational/academic, because Aspies tend to be average to high intelligence. Remedial schooling in this situation isn't going to resolve emotional and social problems.

That's why I didn't just say 'let's put aspies in already established special ed.' You're right in that special ed wouldn't work.
Somebody has said that there is a gap between special ed and mainstream, and that some aspies belong in that gap. 'That gap' is what I'm talking about- 'that gap' should be filled in.

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I believe there is an argument for therapeutic intervention. If anything, I think there needs to social skills tuition for Aspies, Aspies need to be taught body language and facial expressions and other non-verbal communication. These are things that NTs are hard wired to be able to do and understand, but we're programmed differently, we don't come with that 'software' pre-loaded, so it needs to be installed. I think there's a case for doing that outside the school setting. Then young Aspies wouldn't get segregated or have 'special' schooling, they'd have regular mainstream schooling, but maybe while their pals went to soccer or netball practice or whatever one night a week after school, Aspies would attend tuition and workshops in social skills.

Would this social skills tuition be compulsory? Supposing somebody didn't want to go? Would you force them?

It's a good idea though.

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I appreciate it must be a very difficult time for you, as a teenager, to be going through difficulties, but as Wolf said, it's by having all this interaction with NTs that you're going to be able to better 'fit in' with general society in the future. It's a really, really tough learning process. But in a couple of decades (I know that seems unimaginably far ahead now, but trust me, when you get there, it'll seem like no time at all), you will be thankful for what you've experienced and learned.

I agree that aspies have to learn social skills, but I can't help thinking that there must be a better way to do it. I think that if aspies talked to aspies they'd learn socila skills, but on their own level. They would be talking to people who had similar problems as opposed to people who expected them to know what they were doing.

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