Aspies For Freedom

I'm in the UK,

I feel that Mainstream, although hard for me at times, is what tempered me into the firey, witty, strong individual I am today.

This is of course, just my opinion.

I think a school for people with social difficulties (autism+social phobia+mutism) would only worsen their problems. Maybe I am wrong.

I really came into my own at college though..I had a few nicknames among my friends who seemed to see me as some kind of bizzare benevolant dictator

I was called the Russian, Communist (that's a lie damn it ) Nazi () Captain, Darth Vader, Buzz etc

I enjoyed my motor vehicle days, it all cocked up after that and now i'm looking for Admin jobs.

Emphasis added.

While this can be true, the bullying problem is very, VERY bad at a lot of schools. Not just the steal-your-lunch-money, making-fun-of-your-weirdness type of bullying. There are many violent bullies who make school a living terror for their prey.

What should happen is the bully getting expelled, or at the very least suspended and seriously counselled. But that doesn't happen, not nearly as much as it ought to. Despite the laws and the education code and the school handbooks, they rarely get more than a "don't say mean things" talk and sent off their merry way to get together with a group of their friends and beat you up harder while others watch and laugh.

For many, it would be better to do homeschooling, or to transfer them to another school. I didn't run from my bullies. What I got wasn't satisfaction, or life skills training. What I got was being stalked, back injuries, post-traumatic stress, and reinforcement from the school that damage done to me was my fault and a petty thing for me to confront on my own, whereas the normal girl who gets called a c**t gets to file a report so the namecaller gets an office referral.

So the conditions in schools should be improved, but I don't think mainstreaming is universally the best option. A blanket statement like that doesn't work, for autistics or anyone. That's why the educational system is so rigid and often leaves those who fall outside the normal range of abilities behind.

Besides, I have benefited from being in groups with other autistic people, as well as those who have other disabilities. Besides, not every aspie is going to have the academic skills to succeed in mainstream. Even with my having the ability to do very well in academics so that it wasn't difficult, it was very hard. I imagine those not academically inclined would have more difficulty to cope with bullying and such feelings of worhtlessness.

I personally wish I had received more special education services. I only got on IEP in grade 10, and 504 in grade 4, and since the IEP, I have only received limited speech therapy and a few accomodations. I wish that I had had more of the speech therapy that I could make use of, and to have more help with understanding social and self-help stuff. (I still find it nearly impossible to brush my own hair, and I am going to be at college in a year!)

Holy segregation Batman.

Not sure on this one.

Tim

I'm in favor of aspies going to separate schools, preferably ones run by aspies (successful aspies as role models).  That's just part of my belief that most schools are attempts at a one-size-fits-all education that is a failure for not only aspies but all kinds of people, and that there needs to be a variety of schools anyway, for different kinds of kids.  (The thugs who do most of the violent-type bullying need to be off in their own schools, too... reform schools.)

The trials and tribulations of an aspie childhood are going to happen no matter what you do.  It's better if it's treated as nobody's business but the aspies, and their teachers and parents, not happening under the sneering faces of NT children who are not yet mature enough to respect other people even with their failings.  If all your classmates are doing goofy stuff, too, then nobody's got room to talk about you doing goofy stuff.  

Even if you make tremendous social progress, the NTs still have knowledge of how you were beforehand.  That knowledge is a weapon, and they can pull that card if it suits them to knock you back down.  (e.g. something like "Oh shut up.  I remember back in the fourth grade when Mrs. Malade fell and broke her hip in class and you kept on talking about airplanes." being dredged up in the junior year of high school, in front of a girl you're trying to impress)  It's just better if they don't know you at all until later when everybody's a bit more mature.

Let the aspie kids interact with the NT kids later, after they've had time to train and prepare for social interactions that don't come natural to them.  Too soon, when you're still in unmitigated form, will do far more damage than good.

The way I see it, these kids graduating and going into a mixed adult society should be no more awkward than immigrants entering a new country and having to learn its ways.  (That's something I'll refer to as "immigrant model" in future discussions.)

Even in an all-aspie school, the kids will still get to interact with NT kids in other ways outside the school (e.g. family gatherings, scouting, dojos, little league, etc.), so it's not total isolation from the NT world.

Also, I don't like the idea of anything being called "therapy" if it's something that 99% of the aspies need anyway and can be incorporated as a normal part of the curriculum (e.g. a class about social skills... worth academic credit for social studies).

Well, for my idea to work, you'd have to fight off any stigma associated with AS, something most here are trying to do anyway.  It really shouldn't be any more humiliating than going to a small private school instead of the local "it's free but you get what you pay for" public school.

I contribute to this discussion from the standpoint of having once been the pawn in a game of "special or mainstream" between the school board and my parents.  There was no aspie category back then.

While they were fighting that battle, I had the priviledge of going to class with some unstable and often violent kids, many of whom no doubt either dead or rotting in prison by now.  On a typical school day in the sixth grade, that was my math class.  I'd go from gifted language arts to that horrible class, then from there to advanced Reading, and then after lunch it was gifted social studies and then gifted science.  I've now got calculus and a master's degree under my belt, but them deciding I should have at least one class like that and that it should be my math class, put me behind schedule in math.

I think this is such an individual question.  It really depends on the child and the school choices available.  Mainstreaming is working for my son, and is likely to continue to work given what I hear from parents of Aspies at our middle and high schools, but I know there are no guarantees, and things can change.  As a parent, I feel I need to remain sensitive to my child and his needs, so that if a situation is not working we can right it as quickly as possible.

Some friends of ours pulled their PDD-NOS daughter from our elementary school, despite what they agreed was an excellent special education department and a generally good environment, because instinct led them to believe their daughter would be happier in a smaller school, where she wouldn't always have to be the "last" in the class, and worried about keeping up.  The special education officials were concerned about it, because the child isn't that highly affected, and would be one of the top functioning at her new school.  But the parents stuck with their instincts, and in this case they were right.  The girl LOVES her new school.  LOVES it.  She is doing really well, learning and moving forward, and engaging with NT kids in activities outside of school where no one has any idea she is "different."  I see her often and can see how happy she has become.

Would I copy that move, figuring this young girl's success at a special school could be transferred to my child?  NO.  My son is different than this girl, and has different needs.  I truly believe he is the best environment we could find for him, at the moment.

What you have to hope for are parents and experts able to accurately read the child and his or her needs.  It's a tricky thing to do, to figure out what is best for someone else.  And it generally cannot and should not be done without input from the child.  My son has been a partner in our decisions for him for as long as he can remember.  So has the little girl now in the special school.   It remains very, highly, personal.

You may be only 13, but I think you've made a very insightful statement.

You're making sweeping generalisations there.  There may be other Aspies who don't have social phobia (they may just feel awkward and out of place and as though they don't fit in or belong) and not all Aspies have selective muteness.

I agree it's difficult to make friends when it's hard (if not impossible) to read and understand the social cues (the non verbal communication).  And yes, statistically, I understand Aspies are more likely to be bullied or victimised.

However, you have to think beyond the immediate problems and look at the consequences of what you're arguing for.

One of my friends from high school was quite badly dyslexic and although a lovely person and very bubbly and friendly, she was put into the remedial class.  And I also knew teenagers who went to a 'special school'.

If you think teenagers can be a bit cruel to people who are a bit different but mainstream, you've not been on the receiving end of the harsh treatment meted out to people who are officially 'recognised' and segregated for being different.

Tbh, Louise, I don't think what you're arguing for solves the root of the problem, you simply think it would remove the symptoms -- and personally speaking I don't believe it would even do that.

I don't believe that segregation or 'special' schooling would resolve the problems.  And in most cases, the problems aren't educational/academic, because Aspies tend to be average to high intelligence.  Remedial schooling in this situation isn't going to resolve emotional and social problems.

I believe there is an argument for therapeutic intervention.  If anything, I think there needs to social skills tuition for Aspies, Aspies need to be taught body language and facial expressions and other non-verbal communication.  These are things that NTs are hard wired to be able to do and understand, but we're programmed differently, we don't come with that 'software' pre-loaded, so it needs to be installed.  I think there's a case for doing that outside the school setting.  Then young Aspies wouldn't get segregated or have 'special' schooling, they'd have regular mainstream schooling, but maybe while their pals went to soccer or netball practice or whatever one night a week after school, Aspies would attend tuition and workshops in social skills.

I appreciate it must be a very difficult time for you, as a teenager, to be going through difficulties, but as Wolf said, it's by having all this interaction with NTs that you're going to be able to better 'fit in' with general society in the future.  It's a really, really tough learning process.  But in a couple of decades (I know that seems unimaginably far ahead now, but trust me, when you get there, it'll seem like no time at all), you will be thankful for what you've experienced and learned.

I think social skills should be taught to all kids, not just the aspies. There is a lot of rudeness around and kids aren't necessarily taught good manners in the home.

Bad manners and lack of social skills are two completely different things. It is possible to be extremely social and rude. It is also possible to be well-mannered and have no social skills....

I think that what this question really leads to is: why would mainstream or special ed be inappropriate for autistics (or anyone else)? I think it has to do with fundamental flaws in the educational systems, which would take a long time and a lot of pushing to get changed, if they ever do get changed.

Both of these options given (of mainstream and special ed) have failed a lot of people. They also have a lot of people who have had good experiences in them.

In theory, schools should be inclusive of and accessible to all people. However, many times people's needs (educational and otherwise) are completely ignored or otherwise failed. The junior high I went to completely failed to uphold its duty of keeping a safe educational environment, while effortlessly obliging this right to the neurologically typical students.

An ideal school for autistics would meet the needs of students of a wide array of interests and abilities. So people who would, by academic standards, ordinarily be placed into gifted, regular, and special ed classes would be included and accomodated.

Anti-bullying policies will be clearly expressed and strictly enforced.

There would be areas that people could retreat to for short times when they are needed, the group work would be facilitated, partners chosen, and it would be made clear ways that students and parents could make complaints with how things are run, and the teachers' goals would be to guide students' individual paths to goals, involving the student in the process so that they would get prepared for later on when they would have to set and follow their own goals, and learn how to do so responsibly (rather than just taking the easy way out).

There would be loads of other improvements, most of which I believe would also enhance school experiences for non-autistic kids as well. In fact, I would love to start such a school, and gradually expand the diversity of the students to include many others.

In the present systems, the answer is highly individual, and there will be a subset of the population who would thrive in both environments, just as some would not fit well with either one.

Then it gets back to the saying you only get what you pay for.