10-25-2007, 08:25 AM
10-26-2007, 11:32 PM
Science can prove EVERYTHING
... or at least that is how it looks like when I read the debate around DAN!. There are actually studies that indicates that autistic people excrete less mercury than others, these studies are however often claimed to have little credibility by people who are sceptic towards chelation.
Also, there is a study that shows that the autism diagnosis rate in Denmark has not decreased since Denmark removed thimerosal from their vaccines, this is also under criticism, big time.
Apparently there are alot more people of those who believe in chelation today, who do not believe in the vaccine theory as it has lost most of it's credibility. So there has been a change lately. These people believe that autism can be triggered by mercury exposure not necessarily from vaccines, but pretty much from everywhere.
Also, autism are to them divided into multiple medical conditions where some might be treated with chelation and others don't, it all has to do with what caused the person's autism which can be many different things. They also promote different DAN! treatments as a treatment for all the different "autisms". That way they can explain why chelation didn't seem to work for some, and that a completely different treatment seemed to work for another - While people at Autism Hub gives another possible explanation.
In the meantime some parents call their autistic children their "medical sciences". A prejudice I seem to hold in my mind is that many of these parents have it all set in their minds from the very beginning that autism should be possible to treat medically, and I totally absorb such ideas like the one I found in the Action for Autism blog lately that parents like these might actually see actual improvement in their children because they are possibly less stressed in their behavior around them when they have expectations from the treatment.
I think such judgemental ideas can raise anger against those on the other side of the fence of the debate. It's like when people in the earliest wars claimed that the enemies were cannibals. When I read an "anti-neurodiversity" blog or whatever it can be called it actually suggests that all of us neurods are fully against every form of ABA. I for one is not, I just find it sad when the goal is more to make them "indistinguisable from their peers" with eye-contact, no stimming and other more "cosmetic" wishes from certain parents than to learn important things like brushing teeth and eating properly to those who actually need ABA therapy to learn these things.
I think the history of chelation is interesting, could parents figure out how dubious they are by looking at the timeline?
Jim Sinclair tells at http://www.autism-watch.com that the whole idea that mercury caused autism possibly began somewhere in the 80's in a period where everyone talked about how mercury might affect the environment.
It seems like chelation was claimed to be an effective treatment of autism before 1990.
I believe chelation got especially popular when Andrew Wakefield published his controversial paper, also that promoters had the possibility of participating in the Autism Research Intitute's (from which DAN! was later established) conferences were many alternative doctor was allowed to promote their treatments to parents at the conference. Bernard Rimland who lead the Institute had the idea that parents should be able to try out treatments even before tests could be either falsified or verified through time-taking and expensive double-blind tests.
Stories from parents have probably been the most effective advertisement tool for promoters. One form of given chelation is detoxifying baths with DMSA in it. DMSA is however water-soluble and should not be able to get through the skin, so actual chelation can't be done that way. Still, there are alot of stories from parents who has tried this form of treatment and reported dramatic improvements. The history of secretin as a treatment of autism is a good example of a treatment that had loads of anecdotal evidence but was however proven to have no benefit through double-blind tests. All of the autistic children had developed, but no group developed differently from the other.
... or at least that is how it looks like when I read the debate around DAN!. There are actually studies that indicates that autistic people excrete less mercury than others, these studies are however often claimed to have little credibility by people who are sceptic towards chelation.
Also, there is a study that shows that the autism diagnosis rate in Denmark has not decreased since Denmark removed thimerosal from their vaccines, this is also under criticism, big time.
Apparently there are alot more people of those who believe in chelation today, who do not believe in the vaccine theory as it has lost most of it's credibility. So there has been a change lately. These people believe that autism can be triggered by mercury exposure not necessarily from vaccines, but pretty much from everywhere.
Also, autism are to them divided into multiple medical conditions where some might be treated with chelation and others don't, it all has to do with what caused the person's autism which can be many different things. They also promote different DAN! treatments as a treatment for all the different "autisms". That way they can explain why chelation didn't seem to work for some, and that a completely different treatment seemed to work for another - While people at Autism Hub gives another possible explanation.
In the meantime some parents call their autistic children their "medical sciences". A prejudice I seem to hold in my mind is that many of these parents have it all set in their minds from the very beginning that autism should be possible to treat medically, and I totally absorb such ideas like the one I found in the Action for Autism blog lately that parents like these might actually see actual improvement in their children because they are possibly less stressed in their behavior around them when they have expectations from the treatment.
I think such judgemental ideas can raise anger against those on the other side of the fence of the debate. It's like when people in the earliest wars claimed that the enemies were cannibals. When I read an "anti-neurodiversity" blog or whatever it can be called it actually suggests that all of us neurods are fully against every form of ABA. I for one is not, I just find it sad when the goal is more to make them "indistinguisable from their peers" with eye-contact, no stimming and other more "cosmetic" wishes from certain parents than to learn important things like brushing teeth and eating properly to those who actually need ABA therapy to learn these things.
I think the history of chelation is interesting, could parents figure out how dubious they are by looking at the timeline?
Jim Sinclair tells at http://www.autism-watch.com that the whole idea that mercury caused autism possibly began somewhere in the 80's in a period where everyone talked about how mercury might affect the environment.
It seems like chelation was claimed to be an effective treatment of autism before 1990.
I believe chelation got especially popular when Andrew Wakefield published his controversial paper, also that promoters had the possibility of participating in the Autism Research Intitute's (from which DAN! was later established) conferences were many alternative doctor was allowed to promote their treatments to parents at the conference. Bernard Rimland who lead the Institute had the idea that parents should be able to try out treatments even before tests could be either falsified or verified through time-taking and expensive double-blind tests.
Stories from parents have probably been the most effective advertisement tool for promoters. One form of given chelation is detoxifying baths with DMSA in it. DMSA is however water-soluble and should not be able to get through the skin, so actual chelation can't be done that way. Still, there are alot of stories from parents who has tried this form of treatment and reported dramatic improvements. The history of secretin as a treatment of autism is a good example of a treatment that had loads of anecdotal evidence but was however proven to have no benefit through double-blind tests. All of the autistic children had developed, but no group developed differently from the other.
10-27-2007, 06:43 PM
erkolos Wrote:
Stories from parents have probably been the most effective advertisement tool for promoters. One form of given chelation is detoxifying baths with DMSA in it. DMSA is however water-soluble and should not be able to get through the skin, so actual chelation can't be done that way. Still, there are alot of stories from parents who has tried this form of treatment and reported dramatic improvements. The history of secretin as a treatment of autism is a good example of a treatment that had loads of anecdotal evidence but was however proven to have no benefit through double-blind tests. All of the autistic children had developed, but no group developed differently from the other.
Oh this was just fresh from something I had just read, it really is the DMPS chelating agent that is used in the baths. Or was it really baths? Might have been some form of cream rather...
11-11-2007, 12:38 PM
I needed the post 85 one. It's always been:
1. Don't play games on the computer
2. Do the homework
1. Don't play games on the computer
2. Do the homework
11-13-2007, 10:42 AM
I bont...
Right now I bont having spent and finished all of my schoolday...
It's difficult to think of anything big and long-term, but I'll try.
Right now I bont having spent and finished all of my schoolday...
It's difficult to think of anything big and long-term, but I'll try.
11-13-2007, 01:36 PM
Can you bont something if you are unsure whether you or others can manage the effort needed for the thing you bont?
11-15-2007, 03:42 PM
I used to put in links for things I found interesting in relation to autism into a thread on the norwegian board every day, now I just do it once in a while.
11-23-2007, 02:42 PM
Would mercury theory be a such theory?
I think some theories are more like some kind of "wish-thinking", if it could be called that.
I think some theories are more like some kind of "wish-thinking", if it could be called that.
11-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Maybe psychologists or local autism related organisations could help.
11-29-2007, 03:10 PM
I think aspie clubs should be very organised, so that there's no room for confusion or insecurity, if there is any people might ask. An activity while having the possibility to chat might be something. I like going to this thing after school thing every wednesday where I and some others who happen to be mostly younger girls make art. The teacher gives us a task and we sit doing that and chat if we want to. I don't think it would be much of getting to know other aspies if it were to be just a one-time thing though. People should learn to feel comfortable in that setting and interact when they feel ready.
11-29-2007, 03:14 PM
If it was to make art, I think it should be clear that people should be able to make what they want to out of the medium they are set to work with, so that they don't have to stress on figuring out what the teacher wants from the assignment.
rossco
11-30-2007, 02:24 PM
Batman I will say this in my usual way and I hope you take it in the way it is meant.
We really like you here. I don't give a stuff what difference you have or whether some boffin diagnoses you with (correctly or incorrectly) with anything.
You have differences that you recognise in yourself. That is OK. Accept it and grow with it.
If you want ways to deal with these differences we will do our bes to help.
We really like you here. I don't give a stuff what difference you have or whether some boffin diagnoses you with (correctly or incorrectly) with anything.
You have differences that you recognise in yourself. That is OK. Accept it and grow with it.
If you want ways to deal with these differences we will do our bes to help.
12-01-2007, 11:03 AM
Personally I don't think whether you are officially diagnosed really matters if you don't want special services or some kind of proof for occasions, as I think the main reason for getting to know that you have the neurodiversity (should I have said neurodivergence?) is to read others' experiences and participate in autistic communities - which probably only require you to feel that you have alot in common with autistics.
12-01-2007, 08:14 PM
Lemme come with a theory!
...
I've been thinking about exactly what it was about the autism rights movement that made more and more autistic people join in.
Pardon me for comparing the two, but in Nazi Germany many young adults had grown up with no fathers because they had died in the first world war. Therefore, according to some ideas, Hitler managed to take the role-model of a father figure for these people.
It don't think autistic people tend to lack a father figure, but what I think many have lacked, is someone to tell them that they are OK the way they are. When someone does tell them that they are OK the way they are that gives trust to the one who said it, and anyone who attacks what the someone says becomes the enemy, ie "curebies".
"Curebies" generally consists of parents who were shocked when they were told the diagnosis of their autistic child. Many of them probably feel that they need something to blame, ie "autism".
Is there a conflict already?
...
I've been thinking about exactly what it was about the autism rights movement that made more and more autistic people join in.
Pardon me for comparing the two, but in Nazi Germany many young adults had grown up with no fathers because they had died in the first world war. Therefore, according to some ideas, Hitler managed to take the role-model of a father figure for these people.
It don't think autistic people tend to lack a father figure, but what I think many have lacked, is someone to tell them that they are OK the way they are. When someone does tell them that they are OK the way they are that gives trust to the one who said it, and anyone who attacks what the someone says becomes the enemy, ie "curebies".
"Curebies" generally consists of parents who were shocked when they were told the diagnosis of their autistic child. Many of them probably feel that they need something to blame, ie "autism".
Is there a conflict already?
12-01-2007, 11:00 PM
We and "curebies" have these strong almost opposite feelings which tend to make long flame wars, which is more about philosophy than anything else.
Is it good to blame autism (or vaccines?) for your misfortune when that is what your child is going to live with, work with, through rest of his/her life? I think people better blame other things like the incompetence of society if they ever have to blame anything.
It might be that people with that mindset and the idea that you have to attack the "autism" if you want to solve problems will find things that are beneficial for autistic people, but personally I don't think such people have the best perspective at this point of time.
Is it good to blame autism (or vaccines?) for your misfortune when that is what your child is going to live with, work with, through rest of his/her life? I think people better blame other things like the incompetence of society if they ever have to blame anything.
It might be that people with that mindset and the idea that you have to attack the "autism" if you want to solve problems will find things that are beneficial for autistic people, but personally I don't think such people have the best perspective at this point of time.