Aspies For Freedom

I have a few questions:.

- Is it generally okay to be an ass/beg for attention/act childishly as long as you say you were joking or trying to be cute?

- What does 'just kidding' or 'joking, don't take me seriously' mean? Why say something at all if you don't mean it?

- Can one truly expect to be taken seriously if they are nearly always joking?



- How is one supposed to know when something said is 'sarcasm'?

- How should sarcasm be interpreted? It seems like it doesn't mean what the words say, but I haven't figured anything definite beyond that.

- How does one deal with sarcasm when typed out, where there isn't vocal inflection to go off of. The text doesn't come in a special color or have sarcasm quotes or anything.


I would really appreciate any enlightenment anyone has to offer on these topics.

The person trips over, did something opposite to what he wanted and expected, just walk. The friend is shocked and reacts automaticaly like the accident, says the opposite to what he means. It's not really sarcastic. It can be shock, or irony.

Sarcastic is when there's a mean undertone. And that would be the case if this person trips over a lot. It still is opposite to what he wanted, but not to what he expected. The friend won't be that shocked, and a comment like that made too often is sarcastic. Because it not parallel to the accident. It was opposite to wish, but not to expectation. So there can be this enduring undertone of insult...  'your not clever ever'.

No.

There are a lot of reasons to "kid" with some one. One reason is that the person feels nervous and wants to lighten the mood.  Another is that there is some kernel of truth in what they are saying, but they want to say it in a way that the other person won't feel angry with them.  Another reason is to poke fun at something that they don't see as practical. Here is a true life example:

I was talking to a person about my wolf spiders and she was horrified. I could see on her face that she thought every spider on earth should be eliminated.  Period.  She had an incredible and irrational fear in my opinion.  So when she asked whether they bite I replied, "I imagine if you poked at one and really annoy it, but they aren't poisonous for humans." She continued to peer at me apprehensively, so I added, "Of course, they have been known to get up in a sleeping person's sinus cavity and lay eggs."  Once I enjoyed the horrified expression on her face I quickly said, "I'm kidding.  I'm kidding." before her eyes popped out.  And so -- if I had simply said, "I think you are being completely hysterical and ridiculous about spiders."  End of conversation.  She would have considered me rude.  By teasing, I let her know the same thing without being rude -- she laughed rather than falling into a short silence and thinking of a reason to do something else (which I've experienced often enough).

I work on teasing with my children A LOT.  Hopefully not too much, but taking everything seriously will kill them out there in the real world. I'll say something and then walk them through an evaluation process for deciding what I mean and intend.  Very much like operant condition, not to have another thread leak through onto this one.

No.  But if that person says that they are serious, take them seriously.  If it is one of those jokesters who immediately pulls a fast one after insisting that s/he is serious, then they should always be considered skeptically. Some people can't help it.

Odd cadence, odd tone of voice, odd emphasis of words.  Typically, a sarcastic remark has the tone going down at the end of the statement if it would normally go up (a seemingly positive statement that sarcastically means a negative) or goes up at the end when it should go down (a seemingly negative statement that sarcastically means a positive). Think about the statement "That's great!"  When a person says it sincerely, the word "great" is at a higher pitch than the word "That's" and the emphasis is on the word "great." When said sarcastically, the word "great" is at a lower pitch and the emphasis is on the word "That's."

- How should sarcasm be interpreted? It seems like it doesn't mean what the words say, but I haven't figured anything definite beyond that.
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Sarcasm means the opposite of what is said. If other clues fail you, consider whether the person could reasonable be expected to have the opinion just stated. If the opinion is unlikely, then it was probably sarcasm.  Many NTs have trouble with a person whose sense of humor is dry, so don't sweat the ones that aren't obvious.  I've noticed that NDs feel like they should be able to "get" everything when even NTs miss an awful lot.

If the typer doesn't put an emoticon or something, use logic as best you can. Usually an eyerolling emoticon is used with sarcasm.

This may only serve to complicate things further, but I think half the time when people say "just kidding" there is a part of them that is not kidding at all.  Usually there is some truth in everything we say... sometimes we know we shouldn't say it, but can't help but put it out there anyway.... then cover it up with a "just kidding" comment.   Mom

Absolutely true. Freud (yeah, I know, I know) in his Wit and Its Relation to the Unconscious wrote about hostility as a factor in humor.

Look at all of the hateful, mean, nasty humor today that is based on racism and sexism and gay bashing (that ass Carlos Mencia comes immediately to mind) -- but it's supposed to be "okay" because "it's funny."

"Teasing" is often an element in abusive relationships. It first hurts the person, then dismisses their right to feel hurt.

That is true. Ppl laugh away their own problems also. Since someone pointed that out to me I'm trying to find out what making fun of oneself, or of somebody else means even more.
It can indeed be just fun, it can hide something painful of troublesome aswell.
The autistic trait to take things literaly sometimes does help you further in that. Because often the hidden pain/trouble repeats itself again in conflicting meanings in the way ppl talk.

It's useful as self-reflection also. Why did I laugh when it does not feel good? What am I hiding?

Max, there are different kinds of teasing.  What you describe here sounds more like "bullying." Bullying is unhealthy teasing. Give an example of "teasing" as you describe above that would not also be considered "bullying."  

I can't imagine a world where everything is serious all the time.  The best way to describe teasing is the intentional provocation of emotion in another person that may have no real world basis.  It IS a power play, as has been noted on this thread, since the teaser is manipulating the other person's perception of reality.  Let's be real, though, we are constantly manipulating other people's perceptions of reality and they are constantly returning the favor. Even when we act on what we perceive to be the truly true truth, it is just our perception.  A little healthy teasing goes a long way toward helping people be less gullible. I want my children to think for themselves and not be led around by whomever decides to spin them a tale.  So I spin tales.  My oldest can now call "foul" with at least 90% accuracy. imo, healthy teasing also helps kids deal with unhealthy teasing -- they have a framework for understanding that what is being said isn't necessarily so.

I really like all the information I see in this thread. It looks like I'm not the only one who has thought about these things.

I've noticed that when I'm working on something I do very well until I make a mistake. Then I get distracted and confused working through what I did wrong and how to avoid it as well as trying to continue with my work. It boggs me down and slows productivity. I think the same thing happens in interpreting social exchanges. When I make a mistake, it distresses me and then I have to figure out the mistake at the same time as continuing the exchange. It deals a bit of stress, and the easiest way to reduce stress is to avoid making mistakes in the first place. I think that is why I want to get everything right all the time.

Most of my problems with sarcastic comments are non-standard, two-part statments like <sarcasm quotes> Excuse me for liking beef. <end sarcasm quotes>. Is the 'false' part the 'excuse me', the 'i like beef', the implied 'this is beef' or all? I suppose this would be incredibly situational, which is a problem since I only see the situation from my point of view... not knowing what is going on in the other person's head at the time.

I've always thought that if you say something, you mean it at least a little bit. This has caused a bit of trouble when around people who don't want to be taken seriously. I think that if you say something, you had to have thought it first. It came from somewhere.

I've been told: "You are so skinny you make me sick" too many times. Is that joking? Is it still joking if it is said over and over? As a side note... for one who doesn't like much food, telling me I make someone sick isn't helping me gain weight any faster. I just thought that was ironic.

I really hate power plays. Half of why I can't stand 'how to get along with others' books is that they are full of teachings about power plays. I really just don't want to play that way. I'd rather not be judged on how well I manipulate a situation.

I'll give it a try... I've never really gotten sarcasm. People seem to think that I am sarcastic. I think its because I'm very honest. I say things like, "somtimes I really feel like locking my kids in their room" Doesn't mean I'm actually going to do that, just that i feel that way. People think its hilarious...

So I'll try to answer the specific questions...

Just kidding- I do think that people try to pass of a rude comment by tagging "j/k" at the end of a statement. I also think some people really just say random things and add just kidding at the end so no one will take them seriously. "Sometimes I want to light myself on fire. Just kidding!" Kind of a random example...

Excuse me for liking beef- Not knowing the surrounding parts of this one... did you make negative remarks towards someone eating beef? If you did than they were trying to say, "I have every right to eat whatever animal biproducts of my choosing, I'm sorry you feel differently, but we will just have to agree to disagree." Not sure which part of that sentence is actually being sarcastic... I think "excuse me" because that's polite.

You're so skinny it makes me sick- They are envious that you are thin, and since they seem to lack the ability to abstain from fat-producing foods, they will just be grumpy that you are skinny. I had that problem once, before I had kids... now I'm envious. It may "make them sick" because they realize they're misfortune in not being thin. If said over and over they may be trying to express concern about your eating... they may be saying, "Are you having trouble? Are you anorexic? Do you need some money for food?"

Really though, manipulating is a good skill to have in the real world. Wish I had it! I'd have a nice house, car, clothes, friends... woo hoo! :sarcasm:

I'd rather not be judged on any criteria.  It's important to recognize a game when you see it, though -- to see baloney and be able to say, "nyah, baloney."

That just seems like pointless hair-splitting.

http://members.aol.com/cybernettr/shysite/assert.html
How should I handle teasing?

On the subject of teasing, Dr. Joyce Brothers once wrote:

    ...almost all teasing carries a lot of hostility with it. It's really a coward's way to relate, because "teasing" is usually a kind of hit-and-run attack. When the other person complains or is hurt, the teaser can always hide behind the defense of "Oh, it was only a joke."

There are four basic ways to handle teasing: ignore it, laugh it off, respond with the "brilliant comeback," or use what newspaper columnist Miss Manners (Judith Martin) calls "freezing politeness." The "brilliant comeback" is seldom easy for most people--at least, for most people to come up with in time--so it is best to concentrate on the other three methods.

But...just in case you are curious, here are two examples of it in action!

First, there is the story of the writer who held a reception to mark the occasion of her latest book. A rival walked up to her and said, "I like your book. Who wrote it for you?" "I'm glad you like it," she replied. "Who read it to you?"

Then there is the story of Winston Churchill, who had been invited by George Bernard Shaw to the opening night performance of one of his plays. Shaw sent two tickets, "one for yourself, and one for a friend--if you have one." Churchill could not attend, but asked for tickets to the second performance--"if there is one."

If you can't think of a clever retort, Miss Manners suggests a good "all-purpose" way to deal with rudeness, a technique she calls "freezing politeness." "When someone says, 'God, you look awful'--a typical remark these days," she says, "and you respond, 'Well, you don't look so hot yourself,' you're lowering yourself to his level." But if you look him in the eye and reply, 'How kind of you to say so,' it might give him pause." This technique is perhaps best used on people who aren't really teasing, but are making an unkind remark in all seriousness. Of course, this technique won't even faze some people.

If there is a possibility that you might not have heard the teaser, ignore the tease. If this doesn't work (or if the tease becomes a kind of "running gag" that the teaser hauls out whenever near you) use weapon #2 mentioned above: when the taunts begin, simply laugh them off and walk away. That's right; laugh them off! And I mean that literally. Actually learn to laugh when people tease you!

The laugh should not be a sarcastic one ("well hardy-har-har"). It should not be a bitter laugh.It should be genuine and good-natured. The hidden message you want to be conveying is: "I'm a really good-natured person, and that kind of remark doesn't bother me in the slightest."

Practice your laugh at home in front of the mirror if you need to. Just don't let the teaser know his teasing bothers you. If the teaser thinks that his remarks don't faze you, it will take all the fun out of his teasing. The last thing you want to do is give him what he wants. This will only encourage him to do it again.

How do you know which technique is the best way to handle the teaser? Unfortunately, there is no easy way. You may have to try all four techniques to see which one works best with any particular person or type of teasing. (In general, the "laughing" technique is best for most situations.) Over time, you will develop a "feel" for which technique will work best in any particular situation.

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http://independent.com/news/2007/feb/26/...sol/?print

Teasing: A Real Problem and Solutions

Monday, February 26, 2007

By Dr. Collie Conoley

Can’t you take a joke? I was only teasing! Teasing is part of everyone’s life. Each of us has a significant uncomfortable memory about teasing. Even though teasing is considered a type of bullying, teasing can range from an enjoyable to a hurtful interaction. Psychologists define teasing as an ambiguous message containing both humor and hostility. The ambiguity makes an appropriate response difficult: Was I just insulted? Or, am I too sensitive? The target of teasing often feels vulnerable.

Parents and teachers underestimate the pain teasing inflicts. Children rate teasing as the number one fear about entering high school. Retrospective studies link chronic teasing with many emotional problems including eating disorders, poor self-esteem, body image disturbance, and depression. Research indicates that teasing is worthy of adult attention!

Adult intervening can take two routes. First, the teaser should be stopped. Adults should label a teasing statement as harmful, so that the target of teasing is not left alone in defense. The teaser needs to be instructed in empathy training and character development.

Second, the target of teasing needs communication tools and a perspective on teasing that is protective. Children are typically told to ignore teasing or become aggressive with the teaser. The research on ignoring indicates that ignoring a teaser usually incites a more aggressive response from the teaser. Additionally, ignoring probably erodes the self-esteem of the target because of the inactive, helpless stance. Conversely, acting aggressive when teased is an active stance which could help self-esteem in the short run, but there are long term draw-backs. Aggressive action can easily escalate into a physical fight and recommending aggressive action communicates that harming another person is an acceptable value.

An effective response for the target of teasing is called affiliative humor. Affiliative humor focuses upon the humorous part of the teasing message. By focusing upon the humor in the teasing message the target takes control of the interaction and transforms the interaction into a level interaction rather than a one-down interaction. The message is that we are both funny and clever. Affiliative humor jokes about the topic without putting any person down.

Teasing is believed to be most harmful when it is repetitive. Physical characteristics are the most popular topics of a tease. As adults we can help children prepare themselves for the inevitable teasing. For example, our oldest son was continuously teased because he had red hair. Any physical characteristic that is not shared by most children or not culturally valued is a likely target for teasing. We should have prepared him with an affiliative humor response by telling him what to say and then practicing it around the house.

Dad: “Hey scrambled egg head! You got red eggs on your head!”

Son: “Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful!”

Especially those con-artists who try to make you count salt granules and eat monkey brains, I guess.

I used to take teasing so seriously. Teachers would say "don't take any notice" or "it's true what they're saying" so after a while, I didn't know what was true and what wasn't. That is what is dangerous about letting kids get teased without giving them some guidance as to what is real and what isn't.

I also used to get some kind of mental shutdown when people told me things that weren't true. Eg. somebody told me I was ugly so I believed it for years. Even when I later saw pictures of me that looked fine, I would think "I looked okay then but I don't look so good right now". Again, another reason to be careful about teasing.

[/quote]I used to take teasing so seriously. Teachers would say "don't take any notice" or "it's true what they're saying" so after a while, I didn't know what was true and what wasn't. That is what is dangerous about letting kids get teased without giving them some guidance as to what is real and what isn't.
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This is, i think, the main problem I have with teasing- how do you know what is true and what isn't? It still seems to me sometimes a way of saying something unacceptable to a person without being held accountable for it. Such as: "Of course I don't like you... What's wrong, I was just joking!"

I suppose it is possible that sometimes people really are that cruel with their words, but joking is supposed to make you not take notice of it. Maybe I take joking more seriously because I can't unconsciously ignore the meaning of the words, but rather have to consciously analyze the meaning of the words, context, and tone of voice to later determine the statement was meant as teasing and not a statement of fact.

JK? I used to think it mean't joke ;p

turns out it means "just kidding"