Aspies For Freedom

Well, I hate to disappoint you, Max The Bear, but most Mormons aren't like that. Sure, in the original Book of Mormon, they had some discriminating passages, but it was only as discriminating as it was at the time. Yes, some of their ways are more "traditional" than others. I know some homosexuals who grew up in Mormon families who have a hard time trying to come to terms with who they are and what society wants. There maybe some problems to the religion, but only as many problems as other religions out there. Saying that they're all lying thieves (especially without context) is just ignorant.

Max, please relax.

Back when I said I was molested by some older kid?  The older kid was a Mormon.

I am a mainline Protestant (I just happen to be at Mt. Vernon Baptist, Al Gore's old church, American Baptist but not as blatant as the Southern Baptists, and I have attended a Methodist church with an autism ministry).  

I am always respectful to Mormons when they go by, all dressed up, looking like me on a work day, and thinner like I wish I was (dietary restrictions?).  

Every denomination has wolves in sheep's clothing.

It cannot get any simpler than this.

Whenever someone says they are a virgin or a Christian or something that is known only to God, they are either
1.  telling the truth
2.  or lying

We can try to compare their words to their actions.  But to do that you would actually have to have a continuing relationship with them and I can see that could be difficult for many people, as you and many others regretably need to fear wolves in sheep's clothing yourselves.

I don't know well enough how to compare and contrast mainline Protestantism with Mormonism on salvation, so I won't try.  But rest assured, if that man is still alive (maybe mid forties today) he'd better find some salvation.  I said once that the Father punishes unless the Son forgives and the Son can only forgive if asked to.  But when Jesus said those who cause a child to stumble would be better off with a millstone around his neck and dropped at sea.... I do not have to elaborate on the 1st century concept of concrete overshoes.  

There are people of various faiths and then there are monsters, and the two are hard to distinguish.  Simply put.

How about the AS Mormons do Web design for the Mormon cause?

Well Max, I enjoy reading what you have to say.  Sounds like you would have gotten along well with Julie and us back in 1990-1994.  Certainly the best I've ever seen of humanism.  This minute I am wondering if Julie would have had the joy of life she showed me if she was a Christian.

But I saw some impressive stuff from the Christians too.  At the time they were my enemies, but they were stronger than I was.  Sometimes respecting your enemy is the way for them to win.  So you become one when you realize they hold the moral high ground and really have a power source (Holy Spirit) in their lives.

I am sure I tried to tell Julie, I know I told our alpha woman/mentor of the group.  She advised me "not to let [Christianity] destroy who I [am]" and "listen to [my] feelings".  and "Faith is a good thing but let it grow".  

The Trinity intends to change you, so yes, it is intended to destroy the person she knew.  It took quite a while to get past her charisma in the name of Humanity, and my Christian brother, an EMT, was wondering when I would.  I'm sorry to agree with him that a charismatic non-Christian can indeed hold a Christian back.  Mom said if she could have arranged my marriage she would have selected her.   Damned if she wasn't mini Mom too: major, college honors, politics, pro-choice, and hesitation about Christianity.

Damn it!  They were both born in May too!  Mom the 22nd, she the 19th.  Small town origins.  Same name.  

I think one of the Superfriends (Superman or Batman?) once said if you look only for enemies you'll find only enemies.

There is a devil in every religion at one point in history or another.
So-called Christians brought us the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery, ethnic cleansing and plundering of the New World, and the Holocaust.  And Jim Crow, I could go on.

But what does that have to do with me?  I was born in 1970.
And of us born in the late 20th century, we ain't perfect either.
The best you can say of anyone is they care to try to stay off the bad list, not add to the world's problems.

When I wasn't a Christian, Max, the humanists I mentioned tried to reign me in.  Especially the group mentor I might as well say her name is Rachael.  

She did not consider herself a Christian at the time I met her.  She had experimented with religions including Christianity for most of her life.  Maybe she did pick up the Holy Spirit somewhere.  She wanted me to let the Christians alone.  So did I.  I look up to her.  I just couldn't interact peaceably with Christians.

I couldn't do that until I ran into the bunch of Christians meeting at the residence of Dominos Pizza franchisee Mike Clise in Martinsburg in 1992.  I had trouble respecting "my enemy" before I met them.  After six months of weekly visits I did respect them, and even worse, I respected where they got their power, the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity God.  They could do what Rachael seemed to do, what I couldn't.  Maybe that's why I wonder if Rachael was a Christian once but forgot it.  Kind of like the magic slippers in the Wizard of Oz, not knowing the power they carried.  

I was amazed at what I saw in Rachael but did not think I saw in the campus Christian fellowship.  That's why I thought of myself a humanist for maybe two years.

The Christian fellowship slogan: Students loving a hurting world.
A slogan I would have suggested for us humanists: Students changing the real world.

She was there.  Pro choice and anti war I definitely know about and probably women's rights and gay rights besides.  She met her husband protesting Desert Shield Desert Storm.  Heck, it was the November before the two of us graduated from Shepherd, a car struck a power pole outside, lights out.  Rachael and the other girls brought out blankets for the potentially injured.  I was too chicken to go outside, but I did take first aid/CPR in my last semester (I'd seen too much Rescue 911)

Ever wonder why women like Rachael keep their maiden names after marriage?  They've done too damn much with their lives by the time they got married.

I was so happy to be a hands on humanist and not just a hands together Christian.  Until I met Christians I had to respect.  Not the college crowd.  Married adults, thirties, with kids, jobs, and mortgages.  Maybe the age made the difference.  But it made a difference to me.

Max, I am absolutely certain your fellow humanists would censure some of your extremism.  Rachael and company censured me, although they understood I had been wounded fairly badly over one Christian female who perhaps was a little too eager to save souls, maybe employed some excessive tactics, certainly I misunderstood because today I realize that not only are Aspergians vulnerable to the rejection from women, they can't understand properly a woman's motives if she does the absolute unexpected and is standing out like a sore thumb compared to the whole gender on campus, thousands of women, as a whole.  

Look, I understand there are Christians who confuse religion, think dominance not surrender, think critically instead of love, worship their own thoughts and feelings and deify them, and not God.  I think it is Satan's best trick.  Satan created a vaccine against Christian missions.  They are called hypocrites.

Degrade a virus and it triggers a hostile immune reaction that attacks the real thing later.   Hijack a religion and hurt people and they will fight the real religion to the death.

I will not identify the Christian woman because I believe she really would protect every last persecuted person, no questions asked.  I said, no questions asked.  There are certain sorts of evil that would cause someone to deliberately overdose on lithium medicine, and that is easy.  No details.  

I am blatantly suggesting that there are Christians like her who not only stick out like a sore thumb chasing down hurting souls for Jesus but also seek to protect victims of violence.  She was a social worker for a while.   She studied for the BSW curriculum many of the same courses I did for the BS in sociology, but after I had left (obviously).  And I almost left in disgrace: I was not only emotionally incapacitated, I was academically incapacitated as well.  Sort of like the U.S.S. Cole or the U.S.S. Carl Stennis depicted in Sum of All Fears.  

I should have been in dry dock under repair (therapy), not in school.  Dad and Mom had been neglectful (but not evil).  My brother was also not provided the appropriate medical attention for severe depression.

Nevertheless, your fellow humanists would censure you, Max, even gently.  
Don't give the appearance of hatred.  
I was a humanist too and I was wrong to hate.
Let it go...

Just give the good Christians a bone, Max.  We exist.  We are simply happy to feel saved from hell, destined for an eternity without injustice or pain, and get the occasional warm fuzzies from a God that we believe doesn't want to be seen.  With or without things like a job, car, a significant other, mortgage, kids, et cetera et cetera, or even the hope that we will ever have them.

I don't believe every last one of us is a hater.  Hating would spoil our joy.  It would spoil mine.

Depicting a religion as written in its holy book in and of itself is not hatred.
Saying that God, according to the Bible, seems to object to certain specific sexual practices is not hate.  It is a true statement.
You don't even have to say you agree, or say you like it.
Just tell the truth and let the people take it or leave it.

Yes, we would tell anyone who wanted to join Jesus how to, but part of that would be to honestly report how the Bible says a Christian should live.

Christianity is about love                       not hate
Christianity is about surrender                not domination (no room for political oppression)
Christianity is about putting God on top    not your feelings about a group of people
Christianity is about acting in love           in spite of one's feelings

The last thing some of us (me included) is the kind of government that would micromanage human life, even in the bedroom or church.  
Especially not the church.  Many Seventh Day Adventists have nightmares of the USA requiring worship on Sunday and killing those who go to church on Saturday.  Many Jehovah's Witnesses have nightmares about being forced to salute the flag, go to war, and vote, and about life those in Nazi Germany lived.

There is nothing gained by making a bunch of sinners keep their pants on, if they die sinners.  
Religious extremism kills spreading the Good News.  Why else do I think it is Satan's idea?

The first Christians lived in secular society in the Near East, in Greece, in Turkey, in Rome.  Secular society!  Tell the religion as it is, take it or leave it, with the tolerance of or without the permission of the government.

But do tell me more about the millions of dollars part.  I am aware that certain laws motivated by hate make the lives of GLBT miserable.  I voted to oppose the only such law that ever hit home for me.  We have a national debt, a war on terrorism, climate change, and possibly asteroids and comets, and we are worried about what people do in bed?

It is more effective to pray for a don't-wanna-be than to offend a few million of them in the name of morality.  This is not even about innocent fetal life or anything!  (And the government can't stop abortion, or guns, or drugs either) These are consenting adults having sex!

God put consent in adults.  That is the only way some people can choose to love God, if everyone else has the freedom not to.

Do throw the peaceful kind of Christians a bone.  I really liked (romantically) a bisexual humanist before she got married (I was told).  I am still glad there are people like her like me and some others who strive for protecting other people and their dignity, and their right of basic conscience and intimate choices.

Even if I personally get upset that a woman might chase after romanticism instead of a man's character.

Christianity is different from other world religions.

Most world religions don't have a concept of God rescuing human beings because they cannot be perfect.  50% or something is good enough.

Classic Christianity says either 100% on your own (impossible, Hell) or Jesus (Heaven).

Now, correct treatment of one's fellow humans is a feature of all religions.  But we don't have to micromanage people's morality with the government.

Max the Bear, have you ever looked at the original bible as was written about a millenium ago? They had laws in there that stated that yu could own slaves, that you can't tolerate other people's religion, that you can't wear wool with linen; the Book of Mormon may have a lot of crazy things in its passage, but so did the original bible and not everyone who's f that religion (whatever it may be) chooses to follow each and every rule in the book.

When you criticize Christians I mean you to say you criticize the people who give Christianity a bad name.  

But you would be amiss to neglect to mention that some Christians actually try to live in love without hate.

So when you nail the so-called who deserve it make sure you are clearly nailing them.

You do believe Christians are capable of love not hate, right?

Max the Bear, I'm Mormon, too, and I have NEVER been taught that black people cannot achieve the highest degree of celestial glory. In fact, I've specifically been taught the contrary. And I AM familiar with the teachings of Mormonism, I've gone to Church for three hours (almost) every Sunday since I was a baby and one and a half hours on Wednesdays ever since I was eight years old. The Mormon church USED to withhold the priesthood from black males because someone said they were descendants of Ham who was cursed or something like that, but JUST the priesthood. That's hardly anything. They could still hold callings and do everything else like any other member, and they weren't treated poorly like they were in many other churches at the time. And the Church has ALWAYS had anti-slavery views.

Mormons never did anything like burning people alive... well, individual Mormons might have and they might have even claimed it was in the name of the Church, but if they did they would have been excommunicated for it.

Furthermore, there are plenty of black people in my ward and they are just as accepted as any other member.

Actually, no it's not. Mormons are Christian. The full name of the Church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". JESUS CHRIST. CHRISTian.

Well, I can name like six autistic Mormons that I know PERSONALLY.

SarahJoke, I know way back in 1997, Hedgesville Baptist Church was talking about cults.  
They add religious texts in addition to the Bible
They subtract from the all-power of Jesus to save
They multiply obligations beyond those specified
They divide members from their family, friends, etc.

I know the pastor brought up voluntary giving is a Christian feature and absent in cults.  I asked him why did I have to tithe?
Threw him for a loop.
(I have since ceased that practice, however, I do believe it is only fair to attempt to contribute a per-capita share of the church's expenses, if possible)

I also suggested if Jesus washed the feet of Peter et cetera, maybe a Christian man could change a diaper?
I am not sure my spiritual insights pleased the pastor.  I went back to Covenant Baptist Church in Shepherdstown.  Whether or not I know if it is growing on the inside, I know it is growing on the outside, literally, first taller and now longer.  

Tounge in cheek.

My point is that many mainline Christians, indeed, do not consider Mormonism a mainline Christian denomination, many of those would say cult.  But I am willing to hear the Mormons out and then make up my own mind.

And maybe we (now I congregate with Baptists at Al Gore's old church in Arlington, Mt. Vernon Baptist, I have congregated with other Baptists and even Methodists and Lutherans) Christians ought to carefully consider going door to door ourselves, because the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are VISIBLE and they're telling people what they believe.

I am aware of no gay prejudice at Mt. Vernon.  It is a small congregation, getting older, and dying off, and the singles demographic not only sucks, the Assistant Pastor (the husband, the wife is Pastor, they are retired too), I am the entire singles demographic

but back to my point, I am aware of no bigotry herein.  I would be troubled if it were.

When you take a religion, you have to eat it all, and it is never your way like at Burger King.  This ain't a sandwich you build yourself or someone makes for you at Subway, and you don't get to take off the onions and the really hot tamales.  

1.  Yes, the Old Testament said some things that were fatal to people practicing some sexual practices.
2.  But the New Testamant was written in a secular society, not in a theocracy, and applied to individuals who were free to choose or reject Christianity.
3.  The Bible says tell the truth.  The New Testament disparages gays, and yes, that includes lesbians.  But it doesn't say kill them.
4.  What the New Testament does say is that anyone who hates his brother (or by implication sister) is a murderer and has no eternal life.  That's why I would like to hate Waldorf MD or Inwood WV (Go to Waldorf, Go to Inwood) but I don't.  And in fact I am wrong for blaming a whole city on the most regrettable actions of a few (Waldorf: being molested, teased to the point where I stopped socializing and lived to study, until the Christian woman aforementioned in this thread decided I needed to snap out of it, and Inwood, equating my brother with a potential child molester because he never had women around, and was presumed not to want any).
5.  I had nothing to do with the Bible as it was written.  My responsibility is to report what it says in case anybody wants to know more about the religion.  I do not have to like it.  I certainly hated homophobes back in my Julie and Rachael days (we had at least one applicable mutual friend to my knowledge, and I wanted her off the hook as a bisexual woman).

Where does the Creator of the Universe sit?
Anywhere He wants, so don't offend Him.

Tounge in cheek again.  

The major point is that even Christianity lets us, and even tells us to, love and protect a lot of people, yes, including gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender)

1.  We have the freedom and a duty to affirm the basic human dignity of someone rejected by one's own family
2.  We have the freedom and a duty  to feed and provide a place for someone rejeced by one's own family.
3.  We have the freedom and a duty to provide medical attention for people, and yes that includes AIDS
4.  We have the freedom and a duty to insist on nonviolence against any population, and to provide refuge for those being attacked (domestic violence, and plenty of other American violence to go around, including questionable violence in Iraq)

If Christianity denies some people the liberty or moral justification to act as they wish, it is God's idea and has been for far longer before I was born.  

I merely saw something curious in a bunch of Christians in Martinsburg that made me respect them even when I disparaged their religion and disliked them, wrongly, based on the excessive well-intentioned behavior of a past and present friend (yes, I am a friend of their family) and perhaps the misunderstanding of certain high-level persons in a campus fellowship.  

Under humanist auspices I was wrong.  I knew that, Rachael knew that, but I couldn't do it Rachael's way before I became a Christian.

Was she a Christian unknown to me and even herself?  It was fortunate I thought she wasn't, odds are 40 to 1 I would have avoided her too.  

And I was fortunate to meet Rachael and yes my Christian friend and sister.  I was first set up to feel cheated and rejected by Christians, overreact to all of them, try to live my life according to alternate guidelines, but fail.  

It is ironic.  Rachael Julie and I were doing or trying to do wonderful things in the name of the human race.  Most notably living at peace.  But I couldn't do that until I was a Christian, something that may have been hiding among us unknownst to us.

There is yet another group of Americans that most of us don't really like, don't want to have around (but still must treat decently), and are restricted and segregated by society because of their lifestyle choices, they say are uncontrollable, yet we do not fully understand them.

Thank you for not smoking.

I have long thought that Aspergians and gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transexuals have a common cause.  I never considered the smokers until recently.

Us As-bees.  I can't imagine any of us hopping on a bandwagon of prejudice, having been on the lit end of it.

As-bees?  It reminds me of the Hollywood squares when Ellen DeGeneres gave a misleading distraction answer to "Who are the non-reproductive females in the beehive?"  ("Les-bees")

Smile, we male bees who never get to mate with the queen bee must be As-bees.

We're all in the same boat, I think.  So let's make room for each other.

I appreciate the distinction drawn between tolerant churches and intolerant churches, Max.
For the time being at least I'd put Mt. Vernon Baptist on the list.

Maybe we need a safe Christian church logo.  They restrict their treatment of homosexuality to behavior only and as one sin among many, and encourage take it or leave it.  

Code of conduct: Christians Relative to Human Beings Practicing Unauthorized Sexual Activity

1.  Feelings happen, and in and of itself feelings are not a sin unless continually indulged (defiantly), but behavior is always a choice.  However, any feelings that might motivate harm to any human being in any manner are basically unacceptable and must be resisted.  What adults choose between themselves outside the jurisdiction of marriage is not intentional harm, but might be unhealthy, in the case of unfaithfulness might cause unintentional emotional harm later, not what we would recommend, and might be a mistake later to the adults involved, and generally makes God sad.
2.  The only thing we need to say is God (as depicted to humans in the Bible) does not accept various sexual practices between two people not married to each other, and is one sin among many.
3.  All sins not forgiven require your soul as payment as penalty.  Only perfect beings like Jesus can earn the right to sit by God.
4.  Jesus pays all sins if you ask for forgiveness and pledge to live your life His way as best you can, which would require sacrifices on your part, sexual and otherwise.  You can't earn it.  You must ask for it if you want it.  He has the authority to forgive you because He is perfect.
5.  You might not be legally obligated to live by these rules against adult consensual sex.  You always have a choice of what to do in any case.  Living by religious rules without seeking forgiveness will do your soul no good whatsoever, and merely feed the egos of people who hate what they can't control.
6.  If you choose not to seek forgiveness and a new direction, you still have the love of God, and deserve non-hostile, yet truthful, treatment and basic respect, and hopefully charitable and protective treatment, from self-identified Christians.
7.  Self-identified Christians who choose to live a life that hates what they can't control and/or attacks them have rejected Jesus' commandment to love and let choose, and are in danger of forfeiting their eternal life.