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Well I don’t quite follow how discrete vs continuous or digital vs analog allowed you derive what you did, but I see in your conclusions phenomena I’ve observed.  In my own attempts at modeling and understanding myself and the members of the neurotypical conglomerate that surround me I have been led to similar conclusions, although where and how I approach it from is utterly different.

I know that when I've studied material getting it the way I like it involves basically deriving it back to its core concepts, and then using the branching derivations from there and the greater viewpoint it gives.  On the other hand I've observed a particularly strong tendency towards what I dubbed Static Processing in Neurotypicals.  The practical consequences of this seemed to be a preference towards utilization and reuse with slight adaptation of established circuits, which they were unconsciously very much loathe to abandon.  On the other hand I have seemed to have a greater tendency towards a more dynamic adaptation with myself, and that submarine ego thing going on.  I had previously thought I shouldn't draw this as a distinction.  However the data indicating that Autistics operate more numerous, smaller neurons with shorter circuits would seem to affirm that is exactly what is going on.

I find this very interesting as you seem to have predicted several things I’ve noticed, but had no explanation for even if I don’t quite understand how you did it.  I’m kind of curious what you’re opinion on the home made model I came up with from my observations would be.

What are your thoughts on optimizing operation of analog vs digital processing?
Thank you for your message. I'm sorry for my terrible English.
I have more detailed article in Japanese but I couldn't fully translate it.
I have also a little difficulty to read long sentence due to my dyslexia and my English skill.
So I couldn't fully understand what you wrote. I would highly appreciate if you could use short and simple sentence to ask me.

I'm not using the word digital and analog for the meaning of discrete and continuous. My definition of digital is more fundamental meaning. The source of digital is the Latin word "digitalis" which means finger. And the finger means the method of count for human. So the word digital means the counting method of human. Then, "word" itself is just the counting method of human for counting creation in the universe. Human use the word to distinguish the difference between all object and concept in universe. So, digital process means linguistic process. For example, digital computers that are used today run by program language whichever high-level or low-level. And the language theoretically can be decomposed into binary signal which can be translated as impulse in neuron circuit. This thought may be relate to semiotics study.

My definition of the word analog is also more fundamental meaning. The source of analog is "analogy". Analogy means finding similarities between creation in the universe. If there is a cup of paper, a ceramic teacup and a vase of glass in front of you, you may easily recognize that they are kind of vessel although recent digital computer hardly do it. Digital computer should be taught by human about name, material, purpose and category of object to recognize them. In addition, if a earthenware appears in front of you, you may also recognize that it is a kind of vessel even you have never taught what is the earthenware. This ability of human is incarnated by analog processing. This process may be suggested by "Holonomic Brain Theory" of Karl H. Pribram.

My opinion is that autistic people is a type of person who is motivated by unconsciousness, not by consciousness like typical person. And my definition of consciousness is one half of consciousness which is imitable by digital computer. By other hand, unconsciousness is other half of consciousness that is handled by analog processor. The sense of unconsciousness of autistic people is innately dominant and they have tendency to think analogically although linguistic thinking, like digital computer, is second-rate.

My home-made model "The Subliminal Personality Theory of Autistic Trait (Submarine Theory)" is found by my analogy between my mind and actual world. I was inspired it through my private relationship with my friend with DID (Dissociative identity disorder, also called multiple personality disorder in the past). I though that normal person could also have many personality like my friend. The difference between my friend and I was just whether the personality is integrated or not. Personality is just the sum of persona, and there won't be any core of ego or personality. This idea was easily tie in the fleet model using my analogy.

Are you asking why I could do it? If so, I try to explain below.

This theory is built mainly based on philosophical thought experiment which is the only academic method left to the no educated person with dyslexia like me. I even didn't finished junior-high study normally because I couldn't read textbooks. However, it was fortunate because I have learned a lot of useful things from my own experience since childhood. My father was an engineer and my main interest in my home was my fathers toolbox. Most of my knowledge have been acquired through my hands-on experience and trial and error. I learned about mechanics, electronics and computer engineering when I was working for a car manufacturer as a R&D engineer, and I learned about many aspect of psychology to save myself from the depth of depression. Moreover, I went to the unique private elementary school in Japan, named "Musashino Higashi Gakuen", which is conducting "Mixed education" program. In the mixed education program, students with autism are integrated with their regular peers for part of full-day curriculum; therefore, I had many classmates with Kanner type autism naturally. Consequently, I automatically studied about autism since I was in the elementally school. At that time; of course, the name of Asperger syndrome was not known yet, so I was brought up as a regular student. This childhood experience with Kanner type children enabled me to compare the autistic trait with the trait of regular children and facilitated my philosophical study of humans brain.

Are you a researcher or scientist in some institution? Or are you collaborating to some research team in institution as an autistic individual? Where do you live?
I'm curious because it is hard to find the person like you who understand my theory in Japan. Because most researchers, doctors and professionals never believe the person without formal education like me. My research have done only by myself. I am lonely.
So, I'm glad to have reply form you.
If you are a some institutional researcher, please hire me because I am just freelance private researcher of starving,
Or if you know somewhere which could hire me, please let me know. I'm serious. Because here in Japan, the social suppression against autistic people is severe due to recent totalitarianism movement.
But if you can't, I am still grateful if you give me a reply whichever on this bulletin board or by private e-mail.
Thank you.

Ryu
Hello grizeldatee,

Thank you for your message.

grizeldatee Wrote:
This is both extraordinary and impressive. It is an interesting hypothesis, which I wish I were able to read in your native language.


I want to translate all of my Japanese article but I don't have resource. I'm trying it bit by bit. Sorry for inconvenience.
But if you have particular question, it is my pleasure to explain.

grizeldatee Wrote:
It is not impossible to find a researcher to take you seriously. Michelle Dawson did, but this is the exception rather than the rule, unfortunately.  I wish you well. The quality fo your thought is a solid recommendation.


Thank you for the information about Michelle Dawson. I didn't know her. I will try to contact her to ask how she did.
Thank you.

Ryu

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:
My second son is dyslexic too, but is now a successful Martial Arts teacher (he is nearly 25) after years of struggling because, like you, he was unable to complete his schooling.

I do hope that someone recognises your abilities and supports you. Have you thought of writing again to Dr. Simon Baron-Cohen and explaining your situation? Even if he is unable to help directly he might know of others who are able to help.


Hi Tigger_the_Wing,

Thank you for your message.
It is nice that your second son succeed as a Martial Arts teacher. I wished to learn it but I didn't have chance. I like to learn from him if it's possible.
May be like your son, I struggled in depression for several years but I recovered now. My British friend wrote some article in the following links about those days of mine. It is fortunate because I received a lot of kindness from my friends like her.

http://www.crnjapan.com/articles/2005/en...ssion.html

http://www.sgiquarterly.org/english/Feat...ature5.htm

Thank you for your advice. I will contact Dr. Simon again to inform the update of my theory and to ask for employment again.

Thank you.Smile

Ryu

Hello woman from mars,

Thank you for offering your help. I appreciate your kindness.
I introduced my theory to many direction such like university, institution, research center, etc. via e-mail, but I had only few reply. Dr. Simon was one of them who responded to me. He was nice and frank. So I think I should ask him again.

I don't really know who is the discerning about the area of my research in western countries because I couldn't read papers and articles in English so much. So I would be grateful if you know and if you could tell me who might have insight to evaluate my theory.

By the way, How do you print images or pictures on this bulletin board? I tried to upload a .jpg image as an avatar, but I got only error message. Maybe I'm not good at html.

Thank you.Wink

Ryu
Hi woman from mars,

Oh thank you.Big Grin I try here on this message but I'm no sure if it appear.
Let's see.Shy

Thank you for the picture of your son and grandson.
I think struggling with difficulty and overcoming it makes us confident.
And the confidence enhances possibility.
So, he proved it.

Maybe I'm doing same way as your son.
I have been curious about mechanism of any functional object since childhood, so I learned about mechanism of motorcycle, car from hands-on experience without books.....and just in the same way I learned about function of human brain.

Here, it is my Suzuki 250cc though it's not such big like yours.

Hello Tigger_the_Wing

Sorry for delay.
The picture of you with your husband and GS400 is lovely. I feel nostalgia for good old days. I like that taste.
I wish to have a sidecar for my bike too.

Moto Guzzi is also my favorite motorcycle manufacturer.
I like that mechanism of V twin engine and longitudinal layout with shaft drive. I think you and I could talk about motorcycle inexhaustibly.

Thank you for shearing your picture.Big Grin
Hello Simen,

Thank you for asking. Those are good questions.

I'm not sure if you have heard the following funny story which might be spoken originally in western countries.

Someone Wrote:
There was a drunken man who was looking for a lost article under the light.
He was asked by another person “What are you looking for?”
He answered “I’m looking for my stuff which I lost on the way few block back from here.”
He was asked again “So why don’t you look behind?”
He answered again “Because it was dark.”


I've heard this in Japanese, so I'm not sure if my translation is close to original, but I believe not so far. This is an inevitable story to express undesirable attitude of scientist.

In scientific research, it is necessary to build a hypothesis prior to conducting experiment because researchers could not focus upon phenomenon without any hypothesis like Thomas Samuel Kuhn said.
Then, testing method should be developed, and testing should be performed to search evidences according to hypothesis. However, such physical experiment could only be performed at institutional level. Of course, I could possibly contribute, and I would like to contribute, to develop some testing method if I were an institutional researcher, but I'm rather researching it as an autistic individual.

What I'm doing at this time is just lighting up the way back. I think that scientist should deal with consciousness, our language system and social communication in general before treating "Theory of mind", "delay in language development" and "difficulty of social interaction and communication." There should be more appropriate hypothesis to explain all symptoms and all traits, including virtue and vice, comprehensively.

I agree that there are differences in brain between neuro-typical and autistic spectrum, and I think that scientists could find some difference as evidence. However, even if such difference is found by means of genetic study, anatomical study, neuro-chemical study and whatever, it is no more or less than difference. We might be all different each other. I meant it was unable to judge which was correct or wrong unless we had once ever seen a perfect, appropriate, and ideal human.

I think that holistic comprehension about human through interdisciplinary research is rather important than pursuing difference by analytic research.

However, I believe that my theory doesn't conflict with evidence introduced by some neurologist such like Dr. Norman Geschwind of Harvard Medical School. He introduced many evidences about difference of function by segmental dominancy of brain.

More, Dr. Karl H. Pribram suggested, in his "Holonomic brain theory", that there may be different way of neurological transmission from normal synaptic connection. He describes a type of process that occurs in fine fibered neural webs. His idea also doesn't conflict to analog processing of my theory.

Problem is, the paradigm of "proper" science is seemed to be affected by ideology such that existence out of social standard should be cured or be somehow controlled. And it is supported by economical system. If some aid to play with gene of autism is found, there could be new market for medical industry. Therefore, only analytic research that is pursuing difference is worth patronize for market although fundamental and holistic research about our human existence tend to be neglected. It should be considered as one of Market failure in economy system because market never treat well minority issue such like autism.

The way to find evidence for my hypothesis may be relatively hard, but I believe that it would contribute not only to autistic individual but also to human in general. Therefore, I'm looking for employment as an researcher of autism. I would like to say, at least, "Ask me before performing an operation on my brain."Big Grin

Thank you for reading.Smile

Ryu

Actually it's more like you get a notion, and then you hammer the heck out of it until it works.  How usually becomes well before why for these type of systems so educated guessing actually ends up being involved pretty far along in development.  If you want to quible that, you're quibling against the entire history of the Engineering Profession and its success.  It is true that it is of the utmost importance that a scientist maintain their professional skepticism, but from what I've seen Simen you like to suppress using the establishment.  Science is not a church, if you think the establishment is what is of value you are sorely mistaken.

The actual development of anything important involves significant time and effort simply hammering away at it before it actually begins to take shape.  The whole short cut concept is basically just something that's played up to help explain the concept to other people and make those in science related professions look good.

Actual Science is based on accountability, evidence isn't quite the right way to think about that although the psycologists seem to have in general greatly stunted their development with that assumption.  The underlying postulate of science is that the universe inherently has some form of order, we simply have to figure out what it is.  Using suppression techniques is not a professional way for a scientist to act.  The standard approach for professional review is to try to find flaws and bring them up in a manner that can be hashed out.  This allows the theory to be refined and tested.

I'm still in the process of refining my own theory on such matters, from a different approach which amounts to an independently developed heavily upgraded ABA concept.  I'm not a psychologist by professional training or otherwise have the establishment connections to help Ryu though.  I am glad that my expressing interest encouraged others to do so as well.
Have you ever thought about going into Mechanical Engineering, Ryu?  You sound like someone who'd being interested in joining SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers).  

A Mechanical Engineering degree allows you to turn your knowledge and fascination with mechanisms into a productive career, and pays well unlike pure research would.  I have a friend that's a Materials Engineering professor who is also involved in studies relating to autism, so if the other falls through maybe you could approach it from that angle.  If nothing else you should be able to make enough to relocate to a more favorable location, and then network with research efforts.  Granted that I'm a Mechanical Engineer and so may be a little biased on such things.
Hi Batou456 and Simen,

Sorry for the delay to respond. I couldn’t catch up with what Batou456 and Simen wrote even though now I don’t understand fully. I can’t read between the lines what westerners usually imply, and I need time to compose sentences. Please don’t be too hard.

For example, I didn’t understand why Batou456 refer to the establishment because I didn’t intend to refer to Christianity or church. I’m rather an atheist or maybe close to an natural borne Taoist. I didn’t know if my sentences recalled what the establishment says, but if so, please understand that I'm just standing for autistic people including me who have risk to be applied misapplied science as Autistic_Shoes referred to Asperger's paper.

And I’m not confining my opinion only to the science which Simen mean. I think the definition of science may differ a bit from my understanding. What do you include and exclude if you say science? For example, do you exclude Jungian psychoanalysis which is sometime used in clinical therapeutic field in Japan still now? I understand it is not showing laboratory-testable evidences so much, but it utilize mythology that is confirmed simultaneously all over the world despite any cultural connection between them was observed.
Likewise, I learned from phenomenon outside of laboratory as I wrote "I was inspired it through my private relationship with my friend with DID." DID is observed all over the world as similar symptom without any connection between individuals.
Since human is not inorganic matter like caloric fluid, I think testable evidence is not always available. If such way is exclusively applied to us, as if we are an inorganic matter, the result of testing causes people to misunderstand because it's obviously biased.

However, it’s OK if you say science should only be endorsed by laboratory-testable evidence. I agree that observed phenomenon itself doesn’t lie, so it would be accountable as Batou456 wrote. But even in the laboratory, researchers could be influenced by their prejudice because they also need their subjectivity to compose their interpretation. If it’s the case of object outside from us, it would work well. But, once the viewpoint is directed into mankind itself, who could have such objectivity? I’m wondering how researchers assure that their interpretation itself about autistic behavior is accountable while most researching post are occupied by neurotypical, and accessibility to verification is practically restricted only to them. Note that sum of subjectivity, which means the consensus supported only by neurotypical, doesn’t compose absolute objectivity because we are both inside of mankind. Since human interaction and communication depend on relativity, there should also be autistic point of view at least to maintain virtual objectivity.

Since I’m not “educated” in such way as Simen wrote, and I can’t read atmosphere of scientific world, my position would be similar to an impatient boy in Andersen’s Story “The Emperor's New Clothes” shouting that “But he has nothing on!” I accept it. But how a man with dyslexia could be educated while education system is also designed only for neurotypical, and many other autistic children are driven into same situation. This is another reason why I insist that science loses objectivity by itself. Don’t take it as complain or expression of delusion of persecution because I don't, personally, think it so negatively, and I am rather happy to be rejected from formal education because being forced to read textbook annoyed me in most cases. I learn things in the same way as a baby who learns what phenomenon of falling is without being taught about the story of Newton’s apple and what the gravity is. I’ve just needed textbooks to collect the words to express my thought.

The science is built only by language because it treat only matters that are explainable by language. According to my theory, it could be said that science is tend to be fettered to digital thinking, which is the main way of neurotypical, and it is intrinsically advantageous rather for neurotypical than for autistic people. It is also referred by Autistic_Shoes "Our method originates in intuition..." in Asperger's paper.

Considering about this preface, it is not fair for autistic people that science is misapplied by neurotypicals. The attitude of scientists that is not attempt to take seriously what patient say by persisting in scientific evidence, is also considered as discrimination. At least, they should stop people to misunderstand that autistic brain has somehow defect. My intention is, by showing a reasonable hypothesis, to stop such movement.

Please understand that I can't overlook such movement like pretending drunken man, and picking up a pebble, rolling it on the palm, saying like "It could be my precious stone I lost!" While scientist is doing such things, many autistic children could be driven into harm's way. I think it's more dangerous.

Ryu

Autistic_Shoes Wrote:
I agree with your view of a holistic approach. Conventional science has its limitations and this is one of them. It would have to find all the genetic mutations and then somehow prove they had all gone wrong.
Your digital and analogue ideas ties in with my evolutionary approach. The autistic mind was the taker of all descisions and hence sees in black and white. The neurotypical or as I prefer "tribal" mind can also require the contribution of others to arrive a certainty hence can see black and white but there is also doubt or a shade of grey. For Simen the evolutionary approach I take is published as "Autistic Shoes : Evolution of Behaviour" all the proof you need is contained within yourself.


Hello Autistic_Shoes,

Thank you for your support. The Asperger's paper which you introduced was very useful because I didn't know many things about what Asperger found in his research.

I read the synopsis of your book on Amazon site, and I surprised that your episode was very similar to mine. I thought I was perfectly normal too before I had diagnosis. And then, I started to think about differences between others and me.

I would like to read your book, but my reading ability may be not enough. So, I would like to exchange our findings sometime if it's possible though I'm not good at biology.
  
It's nice to know you.Smile
Thank you.

Ryu

Simen Wrote:
So my statements were just general; in any given case, the establishment might be wrong; but also, in any given case, it might be difficult for outsiders without the right training and knowledge to assess it.

I think I understand better.

Quote:
When I speak of evidence, I don't mean only laboratory evidence. There's a whole branch of science called "behavioral science", which is about observing how life (including humans) behaves in certain circumstances and devising hypotheses about why. Needless to say, we cannot recreate anything in a laboratory because many behaviors only happen in the sort of conditions a lab can't provide.

So we shouldn't restrict outselves to "lab testable evidence". Plain old evidence is enough.

That's fine. But As I wrote, objectivity of interpretation about behaviors would never been assured as long as accessibility to testing is practically restricted.  

Quote:
As for Jungian psychoanalysis, I don't know how much evidence it has, but you seem to indicate it's not primarily based on testable evidence. But I'm not a science nazi: of course we can't scientifically test anything. If Jungian psychoanalysis works for one person, by all means, go ahead. But it might also have unintended consequences, or it doesn't cure the source as much as the symptoms, or it only gives the appearances of a cure; these are circumstances that science could help uncover.

The same things could be said to medicine and pharmacy. I think some psychiatric drug doesn't cure the source as much as the symptoms, or it only gives the appearances of cure.
But in this case, science couldn't uncover by itself because it is only observed by subjectivity of patient, and it would be ignored in most cases.

Quote:
I think we should be as rational as we can, provided we recognize that rationality only works if we lay down some axioms (foundational claims; e.g., a moral axiom may be "you shall do the least amount of harm possible"). Rationality, of which science is part, is a tool, a means to an end (and for some who like science, an end unto itself; but that doesn't mean those who don't care about science would think so).

I agree that we should be as rational as we can, but today, science seems to be over-confided by many people who don't understand it enough. I think scientists are responsible to deny such overconfidence and misunderstanding, so that people don't lost their reason.

Quote:

Ryu Wrote:
I agree that observed phenomenon itself doesn’t lie, so it would be accountable as Batou456 wrote. But even in the laboratory, researchers could be influenced by their prejudice because they also need their subjectivity to compose their interpretation. If it’s the case of object outside from us, it would work well. But, once the viewpoint is directed into mankind itself, who could have such objectivity? I’m wondering how researchers assure that their interpretation itself about autistic behavior is accountable while most researching post are occupied by neurotypical, and accessibility to verification is practically restricted only to them. Note that sum of subjectivity, which means the consensus supported only by neurotypical, doesn’t compose absolute objectivity because we are both inside of mankind. Since human interaction and communication depend on relativity, there should also be autistic point of view at least to maintain virtual objectivity.

This is all true, and nicely put too.

Thank you for understanding.

Quote:
The boy in the story does have evidence: he saw the emperor stride naked before him. And if you have evidence, then you could indeed be like that, pointing out the seemingly obvious that the scientific establishment has ignored.

I think pointing out that objectivity in autism research is lost is enough to compare with a boy though I may not be only and the first one who did it.

Quote:
But to do so, you must be able to give an account of how you can test your hypothesis, and why we can reasonably expect something interesting to come out of these tests, since scientists work on limited resources and would like to use them as reasonably as possible.

The first part of my theory, which is explaining about detail of analog and digital processing, could be tested systems-theoretically, but I can't give it here in English. It is a draft idea of an artificial intelligence. And it may also be tested by emulating using digital computer about only basic function. However, I don't think it could be tested by neuro-science of today because I don't think there is effective method to prove the function of brain in holistic level.

The second part, which is explaining about consciousness, could be confirmed by well trained Jungian psychoanalyst. But it is depending on subjectivity of psychoanalyst, so I'm not sure if it could be approved commonly.
But I asked an Italian psychoanalyst who is qualified by Jung Institute, he expressed to me his approval.

The third part, which is prospecting statistical dispersion, it requires survey to prove it by inventing new intelligence test or by modifying conventional test such like WISC. It is because present intelligence test is considered not to be appropriate to test analog processing capability.

I think it's quite hard because it must be conducted by interdisciplinary point of view, and it require a lot of resources. I don't know if it's realistic.

However, my theory could be used more practical level such like in educational field or in psychotherapy field for autistic people. My main intention is for those. They might not need scientific evidence always.

Quote:
This is the misapplication of science. Current science is not so good that it can simply show that a patient who says, for instance, "My head hurts" is lying. But I think you agree that if a person (autism or not) goes about telling obvious lies (e.g., someone who stands there hitting themselves while claiming to be totally calm), evidence can show the contrary.

I agree that patients shouldn't be treated as liars all the time, of course.


Finally, it seems to be held moderate understanding between us I think. Thank you.Smile

Ryu

ichtms Wrote:
I read Ryu's theory and that guy must have find a way of tapping into my brain because he's got my thought patterns explained in detail. That's what blowed my mind to smithereens.


Hi ichtms,

I'm glad that my theory fit for you.
Thank youWink

Ryu

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