Aspies For Freedom

Just finished reading "Not Even Wrong: Adventures in Autism."  Don't remember who recommended it.  I decided to try out the Sally and Anne test that is mentioned in the book:

Sally and Anne are playing with toys.  Sally takes a toy out of the box and puts it in her basket, then she has to leave the room for a few minutes.  While Sally is gone, Anne puts the toy back in the toy box.  When Sally comes back, where will she look for the toy?

Our 12-year-old got it right away, he actually snorted a little about the trick that had been played on Sally.  The 7 and 8 year-olds did not.  The youngest immediately responded that she would look in the toy box I asked, "Why would she look there?"  The answer:  "Because that is where the toy is."  If there were a way to capitalize the period at the end of here statement, it would be capitalized. Very, very matter-of-fact.  Then I wondered if she weren't correct in her own way since ULTIMATELY Sally would look there.

I tried to go a step farther with the 8-year-old.  He turns 9 this month.  So I walked him through the fact that Sally had not seen Anne take the toy out of the basket.  No difference.  He insisted that she would look in the box.  But again, ULTIMATELY .....

Anybody here familiar with this test?  I have considered actualizing it.  Having each put something in a basket and leave the room only to return and find it gone.

Why would Anne mess with the ordening Sally made?

I hate to look for things someone else has mislaid. They should tell me. Anne is supposed to tell, isn't she?

I really hate that test.

hyke, it sounds as though you fully realize that the FIRST place you would look for something is where you left it.  That does not seem to be the case for my two younger children.

Let us not assume that there was any malice in Anne's act.  To her, it may have seemed disorderly and irresponsible for Sally to leave the room without putting her toys away.

Can't find the thread, but I think mom of Hrick wrote about a test like that. And something strange happened there. If I remember right Hrick was the one to look for the object, and immediately went to the toy box, because that was where the object was.

So maybe your kids assume, rightly so, that Sally is thelepathic.

Sorry that I can not find the post anymore.

I think the trouble is the phrasing.  One looks for a toy in the "toy box" because that is where a toy is supposed to be.  I think it would be better to rephrase using two unlikely locations.

Offbeat question, when are kids supposed to "get" this? At what age does a neuro-typical child know the "correct" answer to this question?

But I see your point... "where would she look for the toy" is rather confusing, its almost saying, "where whould she look to find the toy"... or if look is more like see, "where would she see the toy" If she is looking for the toy, she will eventually find the toy where it is, not where it isn't.

Yeah, that's why I considered actualizing it rather than relating the story.  I dunno.  I set up a telephone consultation with a development group in the area that doesn't seem odious.

The test can be done with the questioner making a sly little smile that is supposed to clue the questionee that the actions of toy mover were mischievious.  I didn't understand the meaning of the sly little smile and failed the test.

If the doll is not where Sally left it, then it seems most likely that Sally would look in the toy box because that is where the doll actually belongs. I know I would.